The “Character of God” Controversy ...

.... Controversy Exegetically Resolved

            Recently, I had engaged in an SDA forum discussion which, specifically enough, asked as its topic title: “Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?” As it turned out, that discussion soon became a full blown “Character of God Controversy” (COGC) discussion. However it was not until very late into the discussion that I concretely/cognitively realized that this was a COGC discussion, all throughout my 4-month, 90+ forum pages of discussing it, I was merely addressing the presented issues exegetically on a verse by verse basis. So I did not at all have, contrary, effectively to my main opposer, a background, “View agenda” to defend, but was merely dealing with finding out the exact meaning from each Bible verse/SOP passages brought forth for discussion (usually with them having been falsely/spuriously/shoddily posited as a Biblical support of the COGC).

           Tellingly enough, that ‘COGC’ conversation, which had started on 10/23/09, abruptly first ended after 5.5 forum pages of discussion, on 11/20/09, as the main proponent of the “Character of God View” (username: “Tom”) was indeed ‘not being responsive to presented passages that opposed his view and for which he manifestly had no answer to.’ The conversation picked up again 13 months later on 12/14/10. I joined that second wave starting on page 14, on 02/11/11, pointedly addressing the topic’s title, however that quite simple, and, all objections considered and defeated, Biblically/Exegetically sound response to that question launched off those 90+ pages of various points on this discussion. However, again, tellingly enough, the discussion began to constructively end, when the COG view proponent “Tom” was opting to just not respond head on to Biblical and SOP passages and issues which squarely, and clearly, opposed his presented/defended  view. This indifferent ignoring were quite (typically) manifestly because he had no answer to give. It became quite self-evident that the final arbitrator for his COG view was neither the Bible, nor the SOP, but rather, and circularly, his priorly formed Character of God view.

            I restate these developments in that discussion here not to make one-sided disparaging comments on my main opponent there, “Tom”, but because the way in which that discussion developed, and also unravelled to an abrupt end, is so typical of how a false belief is formed and held: -by not exegetically studying the Bible. What I could not understand, nor accept as honest, was that “Tom” actually claimed to be ‘SDA Seminary educated/trained’, yet he was still, for the most crucial parts, quite indifferently not allowing proper exegesis to determine the accurate interpretation of passages, indeed those that then came to defeat his specific points, and further dent his general view. There is really not much that can be done against this “non-factual” preference/stance.

            As the other, elsewhere, proponents of this COG view also have the same arguments as were made in that discussion, the answers there should, honestly, help fully/satisfactorily resolve this issue, once and for all. So, for anyone who has questions on this key issue of difference in, at least, SDA circles[1], I have here provided several aids to facilitate the reading of, and to get the benefits from, that, much more than less, substantively detailed discussion. 

Issue Resolutions

            To summarily state the result of my Biblical findings in this discussion, which did indeed have some valid points: The Bible and SOP exegetically show that:

-God, both actively/directly, does certain destructions/judgements; or passively does these by taking the action to no longer prevent a harm that He was protecting/shielding against.

-God also indirectly does destruction events, through various “agents” that He summons and commands to this end, and when this “agent” is the Devil, usually strict limitations are imposed as necessarily applicable.

-God’s period/session of judgements also involve, when judiciously applicable, a period of some for of mercy. And the underlying reason for His personal involvement in all judgement/destruction events, even if only up to a certain point, is for reasons of Him wanting to have both Justice and Mercy be properly executed and provided.

            So, the first facilitating aid here is a linked, major discussed points, outline of that forum thread (from the point where I joined the discussion; -Many points that had been made prior to my joining were later repeated during my discussion and addressed, and exegetically resolved then):

[p.14] #130766-[p.15] #130976

-Judgements as object lesson vs. Nature of Sin: “Organic” to Death or Non-organic; and the GC implications.

[p.16] #131193-[p.17] #131287A

-Necessity of the Tree of Life for Eternal Life          

[p.17] #131287B-[p.18] #131333

[A First Discussion ended due to Tom’s ‘exegesis indifference’][2]

[p.18] #131335-[p.23] #131454

-Tree of Life Contribution Discussion Resumed & Physical Nature of Man in regards to Gen 2:17b

[p.23] #131468-[p.24] #131487

Nature of the Content of the Tree/Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil; -added to the ongoing discussion by a joining new user (“APL”).

[p.24] #131487 (end)-
The free-will possibility that sin could reoccur in the New Earth.
Genetical degradation and sin.

[As this outline requires a page-by-page summary reading of the 90+ pages of posts in that discussion, and thus requires some significant time to do so, it will be gradually expanded over the next days]

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Some Extra/Background Details

            With the referred to pertinent exegetical proofs already in hand, this following, more explicit/detailed “behind the scenes”, Spiritual anecdote on a segment of this discussion may be enlightening here as it could optionally help further demonstrate/substantiate what is the True (i.e., God-Endorsed) Biblical View here.

            When, in Post #132600 [near the end of it], “Tom”, effectively, (since, despite his non-belief, the Bible does clearly/truly say that God did this action), brought up the argument of ‘God being shown to be a badgering, monstrously bully, even quasi-terrorist, by, effectively, wantonly, killing the Egyptian firstborn in the last plague in order to compel obedience’, being a quite plausible objection, as it then really did surfacely strike me as this being unfair and unlike God. But, as part of my foundational exegetical methodology, as I related in my response in Post #132612 [correspondingly also near the end of it], I then immediately, staring blankly at a World Political Map hanging above and beyond my computer screen in front of me[see p.218 here], reverentially/deferentially, inwardly cried out to God: “Why did/would(??) You do this??” in the implied sense of: “What was the reason why You seem to have done such a thing in regards to the killing of the Egyptian firstborn”?? As I was drawing a complete blank for a response, and just as my thoughts were inceptively starting to offendedly drift towards myself similarly, effectively, now also “faulting and impeaching the Character of God”, encroaching towards: ‘condemning Him as charged here in that countering argument’, a most noticeable “sonic-booming” thought-inducing voice suddenly came into my hearing/mind which, (as related in this post, and also in examples in this one), I immediately, unmistakably/unquestionably knew to be pointedly of God, and it most distinctly, blurtingly said: “Judgement”. And before I could finish my ensuing, now slightly amused (-noticing an offended* tone in the way this statement was expressed, -a type of tonal nuance that I have personally noticed/experienced before from God, which indeed can also be readily discerned in many comparable, candidly/honestly interacting statements/questions of God in the Bible, -indeed merely by reading them, -conversational notions that are also corroborated in the SOP; *a reaction that is patently in keeping with how God honestly/candidly reacts with ‘those who should know better’ (= Exod 4:24-26 - PP 255.5; see discussion comments on this episode here[mid], here[mid], & here[end])), yet quasi-retorting questioning of: ‘What in the world does “judgement” have to do with anything here (i.e., in regards to (inclusively) the killing of children)?!’, it suddenly hit me just as I had engaged in the process of beginning think through for myself the legally-inherent implications of “judgement” of: ‘it normatively is for the reason of a fitting/corresponding offense/crime having had been committed’, it is then that I began to suddenly, perfectly see, as detailed in my response, how ‘the killing of Israel infants by Egypt, as well as other caused and premature deaths due to the deliberately/purposely imposed overly oppressive slave work and mistreatment’, would certainly indeed be thus justly exacted, and that most strikingly, (in order to be most significant), in this thus judicial and retributive killing of Egyptian firstborns. So hence my response there.

            And most confirmingly, tellingly enough, as incredibly discovered later on, as shown in Posts #134146 and #134615 that notion of “Judgement” with the Plagues had already been concretely stated and implied in the Biblical text. So God here, for apparently aiding reasons for ‘response timeliness’ in the heat of that Spiritually crucial discussion battle, took it upon Himself to “supernaturally” reveal this to me, -as typical of such “Spiritual Gift aids” (cf. this post), to help do/accomplish something that is honestly not capable of being done by an endeavoring individual or collective group. Praise Be to Him!

Additional Comments and Substantive/Exegetical Corrections

            Here are some additional comments that help corroborate the above mentioned conclusion of this discussion. I also provide various substantive/substantively-derived (i.e., vs. “cosmetic” typo) corrections to some posts, most of which are due to more indepth exegetical analysis, vs. at times, heat-of-the-moment, off-the-cuff, relatively surface, responses.

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#1 Further Support

            As I was banned before I could add the following prepared post on the Character of God Issue, I obviously could not add it to that pertinent discussion. So here it is:

The following recent (i.e., June 16-17, 2011 = GWYC) 3-part series by Steven Wohlberg on this same Character of God topic is quite interesting. He actually addresses several episodes/issues (also referring to the SOP) that either were not discussed at all in this thread or were not discussed in depth.

Main/Key Points in each Sermon:

Part 1:

-Character of God = Mercy and Justice;

-Levite executed Judgement in Exod 32:26-28 (PP 323.2-325.3);

-PP 95.3 = ‘the [typological?] “Character of God” delusion on the antediluvian “wisemen”’.

-The Wrath of Lamb (Rev 6:16, 17 = DA 825.4) = ‘provoked by the indifference of God’s professed people to the Spiritual and vital needs of others’

Part 2:

-Wrath of God(Rom 1)

-The “Unmixed Cup” of God in Third Angel’s Message and in Gethsemane

-Gethsemane and the Justice of God poured upon Jesus

Part 3 - TheBeast Within:

-The “beastly” ‘Character of Satan’ taken upon by (MOB taking) men

-On top of having written a book in this topic, he had also made similar sermon series presentations in here and here.

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#2 - Additional Comment

The following later post #134344, in another discussion thread in that forum, provides additional, exegetical proof against the spurious claim responded to Post #131347 of: ‘a believer in Christ not dying’.

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#?? - Correction

Posts #134955 - #135000 (pp. 104-105) - I have noticed, (based on this recent post), that I had misunderstood Num 15:32-36, pointedly Num 15:34 thinking that it was implying a deliberation as to decide whether or not that Sabbath violator should be put to death as the law stated  Exod 31:14-15, and also, (for some strange and unknown reason (~ EW 74.1)), actually not entirely read through the SOP statement of PP 409.1 posted in reply, abruptly stopping just short of what would have corrected my view then, as it went on to state that the deliberation in all of this was because it was not known precisely how this Sabbath Breaker was to be put to death as God had previously stated in the Exod 31:14-15 law regarding this. So I now see that the SOP is not in any way in conflict with what the Bible less detailedly recounted.

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#?? - (Key Typo) Correction

Post #134077 (p. 102) - Just a slight but key typo correction to the semi-personal illustration cited in that post. The phrase “this frequency has dropped to once every two.” should fully read as “this frequency has dropped to once every two months.” The frequency of my parent encountering a snake dropped from ‘at least one per week’ without their dog to ‘once per two months’ with a dog. (A satellite photo of that referred property and its surrounding area can be seen in p. 297 of this document. (The fully shown house is the referred to property.))

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Notes

[1] As far as I know, this is apparently only an issue in SDA Circles, mainly because of some of the comments that EGW has made on how/why some destruction events in the Bible took place. And so the surface and non-exegetical reader has come to jump to a false conclusion on this topic based solely on a selective few, and many misread other, SOP statements.

[2] As it is also important to later, wider development as to why I was wrongfully (indeed even legally speaking), “moronically”, banned from that forum, I have here reposted my Administrator deleted response in #131297 to, as usual with him, falsely accusing, (-due to his various non-/mis-/mal-informed assumptions) Forum Administrator (“Green Cochoa”) [That post is also the deleted post quote in the first part of #131332 (also in #131333)]:

Green Cochoa: NJK, you are certainly welcome to continue discussions here if you like. Tom has been polite. No one has told you to leave. However, it might help you to enjoy this forum more if you adopt the perspective of this passage.

(Listen Green Cochoa,

-I was not asking for "permission" nor "approval" from anyone so you can save your white-washing, sanctimonious "welcoming". It's not applicable here; If you cannot see nor understand why I have actually decided to end my discussion here as indeed not being ‘worth my while' then I momentarily pity you.

-I did not say, nor mean, that Tom was impolite. If that had been the case, I would have clearly said this, indeed like I have told you what I think of you and your continuing ungodly methodology in another discussion (on abortion);

-And the next time you feel the need to take a judgmental, hypocritical, and self-evidently vindictive, "Biblical jab" at me, have enough conviction to state it in the text here, instead of using this sanctimonious "redirection."

You want "respect," then earn it; and do also follow your own forum rule (Matt 23:23-24)

The level of Biblical ignorance and exegetical competence by some of you administrators on this forum is absolutely pathetic. But of course, you all will never see that, because whatever may spill out of your "golden mouth" is the unimpeachable truths. Having to deal with the sanctimonious egos and spiritual baseness of some of you administrators is task in itself. Seems your more concerned with ‘having discussion just for discussion sake, no matter how unbiblical the premise, instead of establishing and maintaining Biblical truth. But, in regards to having such proper exegetical competence to decipher between truth and error, faulting you here is manifestly like reproaching a 10 year old for not knowing Calculus! And of course such an incompetency will lead you to claim that "no one can know the truth for certain" ergo everyone is free to insist that whatever they may believe or have said is, at least, a Truth. All clearly sounds like ‘the wine of Babylon' talking to me! Must be because I am the one who is, Biblically-speaking, exegetically sober here vs. this ‘being "opinionatedly-wise" enamoured with themselves'.

-And judging by your own pattern thus far, and Tom, though through a lesser, but substantively spurious extent, it is clear that you all only answer my various points, only when you think you have an answer, and when you don't you just ignore what I have said, or just perfunctorily restate/reword what you had claimed before, yet still continue to hold to your now, especially exegetically, disproven views. And that is indeed what I do not have time for, particularly on this topic; hence my complete choice to end this discussion here. In regards to this tactical manifestation on the abortion discussion, I only continue to debunk your increasingly spurious statements there because there indeed is a vital life and death issue at hand. Given what the internet is, in terms of wide-reaching accessibility and that public forum, wouldn't want a child to die, or even, a sincere mother to make the wrong choice, because they was fooled/misguided by your spurious, actual, ‘defense of abortion in the name of God' there.)