It is easy to notice around SDA circles today various people who are claiming to being directly led by God. All also claim to have Final Events implications. I.e., some claim that God has expressedly led them to conduct a ministry to Finish the Work, others claim that He led them to writing a special prophetic and/or prophecy interpreting message in a book, and at the pinnacle of such claims are those who claim to have received visions and/or dreams from God which have direct implications in regards to the Second Coming. In regards to such claims, and as SDA’s should clearly know due to the life and prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White, God can indeed work in such ways, and that, at His discretion, and so, contrary to the unfortunately basely (i.e., really more pridefully vexatious and/or jealously covetous) quite common reaction to such claims, the due reaction is not to be the summary dismissal of such claims, but as counselled by Paul in 1 Thess 5:19-22, to do an adequately thorough examination of them. The reason why such a, and that, default, ‘due testing of the Spirits’ is indeed important is that, God will indeed call whomever He variously sees is capable/fit, as He has deemed worthy, for such a prophetic ministry, because, unlike humans, He looks on the heart and not on outward appearances and thus will see who is “deserving” to receive such a gift,... and also who is not (e.g., those who are variously ‘rebelling against understood light’).
Indeed, and tellingly enough, as seen in Biblical History, it is very rarely those who are in (quasi-democratically appointed) positions of power amongst His People, namely Administrators (Kings/Conference Administrators); Teachers (Scribes/Scholars) or Clergy (Priests/Pastors) who are also Divinely appointed to by Him to the prophetic office. (Only with certain people like Moses, Samuel, David, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and of course Jesus, all directly called by God, were more than one of those gifts found.) And that may indeed be because the leaders of His People become overconfident in their arrived-at position, which typically is normatively through some kinds of formal schooling and/or favoring “lineage”, and so it is typical for such leaders to ‘become prideful and self-reliant, and thus then spiritually independent of God’ (5T 82.2-4; cf. LDE 209.3). And so, as with the selection of David for a King, God chooses whomever He sees is spiritually “worthy” to receives such a gift, however as seen in the Bible (King Saul) and Adventist History (Hazen Foss), (and applicably, see the discussion of the experience of David Gates here, later variously illustratively mentioned in this post) indeed according to the Foreplanning Theological understanding of ‘God and the Future’, even the direct “election” by God of a, then “worthily/primely electable” person is not a guarantee that they will faithfully execute their calling or honor their granted gift(s).
And so, with claims of some kind of prophetic revelation, and that at any possible degree (i.e., a calling, guidance, inspired/prophetic insight and/or pronouncement, dream(s), vision(s)), it is Biblically wrong to, effectively, “throw the baby out with the bath water”, if it occurs that the person claiming such prophetic gift(s) comes to say or do things which would betray their profession or calling. Instead their claims must be carefully examined in themselves in order to, when applicable, salvage, particularly, the already given message(s) that God had communicated to His People through them.
Interestingly enough, with God manifestly having not much choice but to elect the “weakest of the weak”, because the ‘capable and qualified ones’ are too spiritually independent of Him, and thus (too) rebellious for Him to ever begin to honor such a Divine snubbing, God indeed has to hand this precious prophetic gift and revelation to variously “simple” people, usually laymen, who are indeed not fully equipped (usually in terms of necessary Theological/Scholarly education) to properly handle it. And so, with God indeed not going to repeat or state something that could have been readily found in the Bible by a sincere, devoted and (exegetically) proper examination of the Bible, it is almost unfailingly typical of those (literally) “sub-par prophets”, who are sincerely most impressed with this gifting, to take a message of God and misinterpret it or misapply it. Yet in such cases of mishandling, God actually had a pointed purpose for even such permitted ‘misunderstanding Great Disappointments’ (i.e., as with William Miller’s slight, but key, misunderstanding that the 2300-day prophecy would end in the Second Coming)[1]. So as with handing a vase to a toddler, the usual result is that it (accidentally) ends up getting shattered. It then is up to others to pick up those strewn pieces and try to glue them back together into its original (functional) vase state/form.
And so, as I have observed and read into/about various SDA’s who claim to have been ‘led by God to do/preach/prophesy something’, I personally apply the 1 Thess 5:19-22, which is really only properly done through thorough Biblical exegesis, and do ‘“hold on” to what is good’. Typically, this is the actual direct revelation given to that person itself, however, there is always something purposeful that can also be learned from the added, usually unBiblical/incorrect material/messages [and it always seems to have something to do with the SOP explicitly proscribed ‘definite time setting’ (See here and here)], that the individual aggregated around those authentic direct revelations. And so in this blog post, I will mainly deal with 4 individuals who have claimed to have the prophetic gift and have related revelations, dreams and visions they say that God has given them. These are namely, (in a pointed order), James Tierney, Ron Beaulieu, Ernie Knoll and Eugene Shubert. Some others who have claimed to have one or several “impressive (prophetic(?)) dream(s) will also be tested, -namely, e.g., Steve Starman, J. Lynn Peters. Other people who have claimed to have received special guidance from God, though not claiming these to have been prophetic revelations per se. such as e.g., David Gates and Henry Hills, will also be mentionedly discussed, but to a less pointed/dedicated extent, with, due to the quasi-prophesying, (self-intimidated ‘William Miller II’), implications of his interpretive claims, the ministry of Jeff Pippenger (see his website here) probably also to be done at some latter time in this post.
As it can be seen in my blog, I also state that I have received “audible” guidance and impressions, (see e.g. here and in here), as well as prophetic visions and dreams, (see e.g. here, here and here), from God. To summarize the consistent theme of those various revelations, they have all been in relation to the utter Judgement of the SDA Church and to lead, aid and guide in the establishment of a New Remnant Movement, the Church Triumphant which will replace this atrociously failed SDA Church Militant which has been, due to its persisted waywardness, removed from and superceded in, its previously granted Remnant Church standing. And for such, as in past frustrating of God’s prophetic plans and timing in SDA Church History, time has already begun to be prolonged, and will last as long as it needs to be, so that God’s Testimony of the Gospel of His Kingdom can do its, now greatly heightened, due work throughout the Earth. However, the above explicitly cited people above have all claimed to have received either prophetic revelations and/or guidance which, (they mostly actually, assumedly) claim, means/implicates that the “Second Coming is very near’. So then what gives?? If/Since we (i.e., me vs. them) all claim to be directly inspired by God, then we cannot both be right. And also, as these “prophets” are “outnumbering” me, then how can I claim to be right. Indeed, as I have observe, most people (i.e., SDA’s) are rejecting the full implication of my messages on this blog, whenever this pointedly involves an understanding that ‘the Second Coming will not occur either “soon”’ or ‘in their lifetime’. (It, as later discussed, is then (however “tellingly”) surprising that they do not better embrace the messages of these other prophets, at the very least, their actually Biblical messages (i.e., minus the, admittedly, unscriptural added claims and statements made to them.)
Well to summarily state it here, as it was detailedly pointed out in regards to David Gates and his “Lazarus Experience”, I now most fully, Biblically/Theologically see and understand that God has indeed raised up these various people and indeed given them prophetic revelations, however merely in the, judgement-wise due, Ezek 14:1-5, 7 way, indeed in order to ‘ascertain what was really in the heart of His professed believers.’ And what I have seen was revealed in those testings was that, despite loud and self-lauding professions, these SDA were neither willing, nor ready, to do what was necessary to bring about the Second Coming. As with those who rejected the Second Advent movement, they actually did not ‘love the appearing of their Lord’ as they mantraically claimed in sermons and songs, because when that professed “love” demanded a sacrifice, pointedly in behalf of others who did not know about this message and were not ready for it, or were in various vital physical needs (Matt 25:31-46), these SDA’s would just not be bothered. They instead, like baselessly cantankerous Jonah (cf. Jon 4:9-11) they did not actually share in the self-eclipsing compassion of their Lord and God and were instead, out of hurt pride, “camping out” and gleefully awaiting first for great destruction and prophesied events to come (e.g., Super-Natural Disasters and a Sunday Law) in order to then not suffer to have various doors be offendedly slammed in faces when then trying to share their faith and this final warning message with others. But that is not at all the type of faith that God expected, nor could work with, from His professed people. And because of the various sinful reasons which have engendered this spurious faith and religion, these SDA’s have been rejected and left to their false ways, having indeed atrociously failed the various testings which God candidly brought forth to them, through those various “prophets”, and really, none of them had, in their actual direct messages from God, had called SDA’s to ‘go after foreign gods’ nor ‘rebel against the actual will of God’. (Deut 13:1-5). So SDA’s really had not valid excuse to not have passed these testings, and if they had had a proper Biblical basis, they would have been able to judiciously extricate God’s actual will and counsel to them through those diverse prophetic revelations. In short here, God gave SDA’s a customized testing according to their present various professed beliefs and faith, and they only proved that that also was just lip service. (Isa 29:9-16)
And so it is in this studied out and observe light, that I also see another implication for the here-discussed initial “semi-strict” (i.e., discretionary) command in my first vision, to ‘not make known, nor explain, my own experience or vision to other SDA’s’, as I had then resolved to do. Manifestly God did not want SDA’s to have any potential excuse for not heeding the other concerted prophetic messages that He was sending to them to test what was in their hearts. (cf. 2 Chr 32:31) I.e., to see whether those profession were actually genuine/true or merely pretentious/self-serving lip service. (Isa 29:13). Indeed, as it has now been shown, SDA’s do invalidate all of the Commandments of God by their idolatrous adherence to worldly principles and practices (see this post; =Matt 15:1-9). And so, in my own, distinct prophetic revelations, God was from long ago, (indeed just as David was anointed and readied to replace ever floundering King Saul, and that long before (i.e., ca. 13 years) before Saul went on to “crash and burn”), setting up here the alternative for indeed the Remnant of the Remnant Church Triumphant which is to succeed and supercede the SDA Church Militant (=1 Kgs 12:24; Dan 11:5).
Prophetic Claims Examinations
And so, with the above, general and deductive understanding in mind, I’ll be here examining the various prophetic claims of the above cited people, particularly the three (Tierney, Beaulieu and Knoll) who have claimed to have received prophetic gifts. As there is much of such direct revelations to cover, (especially with Beaulieu and Knoll), this will not (at least for now) be an exhaustive exercise. However as I have found Tierney’s revelations to be most interesting, I will first be delving into his claims here.[2]
For such people, it is quite basely, and thus ensnaredly/deceivedly believed that ‘doing all that is possible to help those in need’ will somehow prevent the Second Coming. And so they abstain from such full, good works, instead most hypocritically directly or indirectly expending their available money, time, resources and means selfishly and self-servingly on themselves, and most fittingly and ironically enough, that is actually the reason why the Second Coming will be, and indeed has been delayed. But that understanding just can’t begin to get through the dense mind of people who have an incorrect understanding of the character of God and His purposes and who thus have an “irrevocably set times” (indeed ‘no matter what they do’) approach and understanding to the Bible and Bible Prophecies (including “Signs of the Times”). All just like the helplessly blinded First Century Jews!! (2 Cor 3:4-18). In all of these examinations, it is most interesting to see the specific, purposely ambiguous “fork in the road” point where these people indeed took the wrong road (i.e., assumed/believed the improper prophetic understanding), and thus have ended, or will end, at the wrong destination. Yet all this is also according to God’s (purposely permitted) will (Ezek 14:1-5, 7-8 -see my specifying elaboration on this procedure of God here below)
For such people, it is quite basely, and thus ensnaredly/deceivedly believed that ‘doing all that is possible to help those in need’ will somehow prevent the Second Coming. And so they abstain from such full, good works, instead most hypocritically directly or indirectly expending their available money, time, resources and means selfishly and self-servingly on themselves, and most fittingly and ironically enough, that is actually the reason why the Second Coming will be, and indeed has been delayed. But that understanding just can’t begin to get through the dense mind of people who have an incorrect understanding of the character of God and His purposes and who thus have an “irrevocably set times” (indeed ‘no matter what they do’) approach and understanding to the Bible and Bible Prophecies (including “Signs of the Times”). All just like the helplessly blinded First Century Jews!! (2 Cor 3:4-18). In all of these examinations, it is most interesting to see the specific, purposely ambiguous “fork in the road” point where these people indeed took the wrong road (i.e., assumed/believed the improper prophetic understanding), and thus have ended, or will end, at the wrong destination. Yet all this is also according to God’s (purposely permitted) will (Ezek 14:1-5, 7-8 -see my specifying elaboration on this procedure of God here below)
James Tierney Dreams/Visions
In this vision, Tierney claims that just as the second airplane crashed into the second World Trade Center tower and a large fire ball immediately ensued, he right then received a vision in his head of EGW’s vision recorded in CET 102.2 (cf. EW 36.1-38.2 = CET 100.1-102.2) of Jesus pleading with the father to Hold back the Four Winds which were about to blow upon the earth. That vision of course is what is also described in Rev 7:1-3. Tierney claims that his vision confirms/indicates that:
‘God allowed him to see the Rev 7:1-3 & CET 102.2 event, foretold by the Spirit of Prophecy 90 [sic] years earlier, at the exact moment that it occurred in heaven.’ [See his further contextualizing account here)
While it may seem trivial, it is actually significant that that vision of EGW was given, as clearly stated a few paragraphs above in CET 100.1 (=EW 36.1), on Saturday, January 5, 1849, thus 152 years before September 11, 2001. This is significant, because according to Tierney’s ‘90 years ago’ understanding, he would thus believe that the vision was given in 1911. And with that being ca. 4 years before EGW’s death, it can then be seen how he assumes that the only fulfilment of that vision occurred in the future from that date. But as detailedly discussed and demonstrated in this post, that EGW vision, which was actually given in two distinct phases of occurrences, indeed had two prior fulfillments, during EGW lifetime, with a first occurring in ca. 1850, and then another in ca. 1888, as in both occasions, that generation of SDA’s failed, through disobedience, to allow then forming, assembled and/or even inceptively unravelling final events to fully come to pass. As EGW clearly stated in 15MR 292.2-4 (1897), that vision was indeed fulfilled then and “the Lord's work has been hindered, the sealing time delayed”. So at best, what Tierney was shown could only be a Third fulfilment of that vision.
To the person theologically taught/conditioned that prophecy can only have one, set occurrence, rather than, as the Bible teaches, ‘whenever God sees it fit, to either fulfill it and/or to postpone it,’ even haltingly so (see Jer 18:1-10ff), it cannot be accepted that this prophecy could have more than one fulfillement, especially as this involves that the Second Coming could and should have occurred, here, at least two other times in the past, with a possible third past time, being the most merciful one right on or around October 22, 1844, as discussed in Note #1. But the Theological Truth of the matter is that God had indeed previously, up to 3 times, tried to effectuate the Second Coming, but various groups of people then were either not fully ready for, or properly warned of, it, and so in mercy, and that pointedly on those who were professing to be ready but really were not, those attempts were literally “called back”, and with each subsequent attempt being then at a more advanced stage.
So do I believe Tierney was wrong in his claim in itself that he saw the Four Winds halting vision in at that precise Second Plane Strike [cf. also here] time on September 11, 2001? Actually no. (Somewhat significantly, it is actually quite “cosmetically”, evidentiary (i.e., as an outward, remote/third-hand, attesting sign), that he said he received the vision right when the plane crashed into the tower. From my own experience and reaction that morning, at that very moment, though I had instantly a related moment of instant consterned reflection, (later discussed), the last thing I would be doing then, unless under some sort of ‘overruling/overmastering Divine impression’, is, effectively “day-dreaming” about something/anything else. Indeed at that very instance, watching the (W)ABC News feed being carried by the Canadian CBC Station, as the corner of my eye spotted the sudden shadowed silhouette of that second plane as it came into the picture and a about a second later, yet which then seemed like a few slow motion seconds, crashed into the WTC tower, my brain had time to send a shiver [cf. here] throughout my entire body and I was immediately just quasi-shockingly absorbed by what I had just seen.[3] I’ll spare you the details of my almost immediate (“they-(the U.S)-indeed-had-it-coming”) jubilant “Touchdown” signaling and celebration, but, related to what Tierney was shown as to the meaning of his vision then, in the brief moments between that plane strike and my celebration, I had a brief moment of consternation as I then began to crunch the implications here of a now, no longer speculative, as it was then, but most obviously confirmed, systematic and well-organized, at the very least, rogue (vs. State) terrorist attack, as I thus immediately understood here, knowing both the (Truth-wise oblivious and obtrusive) religio-national pride, and notoriously and historically wanton-in-less-alarming/chaotic-times, wielded militaristic might of the United States, that there surely was going to be a jointly “exemplary” & surely most-disproportionate, indeed probably nuclear, “Hellish” payback response. {Cf. a similar feeling/similar by Francis Chan in his 09-23-2001 ‘Attacks Response’ sermon [mp3] [25:36-26:21]}. What pointedly momentarily “consterned” me right then was that I was during those days, in the middle of trying to advance and implement plans leading to the establishment of my “prolonged-time” NJK Project. But this attack and its almost sure “ultimate” retaliation, probably resulting in some kind of major, even World War, for I, as really not too many people right then, just could not conceive that merely a rag tag bunch of ‘19 effectives armed with box cutters’ could pull of such a militaristically precise joint, multiple and (quasi)-simultaneous strike; -and the also precisely successful complex striking of the 4-floor high, Pentagon, (no less), was still in the future then, with another probably also significant target ahead for their fourth hijacked plane. So for a brief moment, I literally thought it was “all over.” (however 11MR 361.1b & EW 85.3b = here) But, having come to somewhat of an impasse then in my project’s road (cf. Dan 11:18-19 = 2T 596.2a; cf. here, -until I would soon after figure out a way to surpass it), I figured that if this is how it is all going to end, then that was actually quite a “great way”, with the U.S., duly, and most tangibly, paying for, as indeed the SOP vision here pointed involved, its various sins.[4] And so, really feeling at that moment that ‘the end of the world had just begun right before my eyes,’ (cf. a similar expression in this clip on the massive 2010 Haiti Earthquake), I then became quite glad that, at least, indeed in Divine justice, the “most guilty party” (=Exod 20:7) was here, in some way, quite tangibly getting what it (long) deserved.
And so, merely taking Tierney’s word for it here[5], that he then received a vision (actually of another fulfilment) of Rev 7:1-3-like vision (CET 102.2/EW 38.2), I corroboratingly do see it as striking, and thus telling, that he, as he claims, had gone off into “other” (i.e., non-straightforwardly-related), thoughts right at that very instance. So with the “outward, somewhat “super/non-natural” sign of prophetic revelation quite self-manifest here, the question then comes to whether his claim is Biblically substantively valid. I.e., did God indeed right at that very instance ‘hold back the winds’.
For starters, this claim would seemingly/surfacely go against my own prophetically-guided and exegetically corroborated understanding, as stated in this message which had been given around mid-June 2000, just prior to the 2000 General Conference Session in Toronto, Canada that year, indeed stating that EGW’s statement in 15MR 292.4 on ‘the Holding of the Four Winds’ had indeed already had a (third) contemporary fulfillement, which I had then seen had started to occur back in ca. August of 1999, around the time when I then understood the full meaning in the Daniel 11 sealed scroll (see this post -which involves the “waving” of that scroll in EW 37.1; cf. 254.1).[6] But, as I will discuss shortly, I actually do not see that those two “lights” on this issue, with Tierney’s having been more “direct” than my more exegetically-based, yet still prophetically-deduced, one. First, in regards to Tierney’s light, I think the fear of sure and severe U.S. retaliation that I felt almost immediately after the initial shock of seeing the Second WTC Plane Crash live, is one that could be palpably felt by most, if not all, watching this live on TV. You could indeed pivotally hear this in the various voices of news anchors/commentators in related expression of: “That’s it, we’re being attacked.... now what.” The international phone lines were probably, well at least proverbially, melting down at the White House with government leaders around the world rushing to immediately express their sympathies and/or non-involvement. Even the leader of the, then notably severally rejoicing Palestinians, the late Palestinian Authority president/PLO leader Yasser Arafat, was relatively quick (i.e., by ca. 12:00 EDT/GMT -5; (cf. here =the earlier filming of Arafat and his reactions as the 9/11 events were then ongoing)) to state their non-involvement;[7] as was, ironically enough, the Taliban with/in a live press conference at ca. 12:51 P.M. EDT/GMT -5).
But really the epitome of what could, and should, have happened, but incomprehensibly enough, did not, was seen in the footage of then President George W. Bush being told by his Chief of Staff of the Second Plane Strike ca. 3 minutes after it occurred, and, surprise of all surprises, he, effectively, (i.e., despite being visibly, flushedly quite angered), not reacting, (as then expected, even due), at all. I mean it was now clearly, or at the very least, sufficiently, evident that a high profile and targeting, highly-skilled, and precisely-coordinated, attack on the United States, that the “Commander-In-Chief” had to indeed suspect much, much more than ‘mere terrorist actions.’ Yet Bush-, who moreover was on the road, in Tampa, Florida, thus in certain key ways, out of position (i.e., e.g., away from, at least, the White House’s (West Wing) Situation Room or even its (East Wing) PEOC Bunker), from being in a reliable/authoritative/powerful/controlling response position for any further militaristic eventualities, (a ‘position-of-weakness’ situation that such a, evidently, sneakily-attacking power would indeed seek to advantageously have), -did not budge. Even Osama bin Laden, probably, as pointed out here, recycling the “left”-originating comment of Michael Moore in the 2004 Fahrenheit 9/11 documentary [full video], later went on to jeer at Bush for remaining irresponsive/idle while his country was (now clearly) being attacked. (video clip). In fact, as stated here, at 9:10 A.M. vice-president Dick Cheney was taken to the White House’s PEOC Bunker (cf. this photo), and had put into effect the U.S.’s Continuity of Operations Plan (COOP), a protocol which had been created during the Cold War so that the U.S. Government could/would seamlessly, functionally survive a nuclear attack, and this is indeed all reflective of a feared, imminent nuclear (super)strike. Cheney even suggested to the President, [maybe during this conversation], to remain airborne in Air Force One, which is another protocol for feared nuclear attack on the U.S.[8] Yet the one with the authority and power to counter this rightly, widely feared, potential sneak/first-strike, WMD attack, even if crudely from a rogue source, just sat there calmly for the next 7 minutes until he then made his statement at 9:16. (Yet, in a move that albeit was then probably more for the dramatics than for any actual precaution or necessity then, after addressing the nation that evening at 8:30 P.M. Bush, after actually having earlier had, e.g., a casual meeting with Senior Staff in the Oval Office’s private dining room (see photo here), then holds a National Security meeting in the White House’s PEOC Bunker (see photo here).) So just based on all of these non-normative, even contra full-protocol inactions, which really, U.S.-democracy-speaking, only the U.S. President could discretionarily opt to not follow, probably also staying off the protective suggestion of the Secret Service, it can be even casually seen that a “strange” spirit was in some mediated form taking control of the situation here. I mean, per instance, the U.S., since 1961 has had a military command and control center plane, initially, until 1990, in flight 24/7 (being, air refueled), and since, on 24 hours ground alert, in order to never be caught “grounded/off guard” by any nuclear attack....And in fact, as it was only figured out’ by the media 6 years later in 2007 (see e.g., here; cf. here), a plane which is a part of this extreme emergency response measure, namely the Boeing 747 E-4B “Doomsday Plane”, formally nicknamed the Nightwatch (tour video), was indeed airborne, with confirmed and claimed sightings over both Washington D.C. and New York City before the two struck WTC towers had collapsed. And apparently, quite late on that day, George Bush used that Airborne Command Center plane to travel instead of Air Force One (see here). So at the very least, Bush should have, as Cheney had suggested to him, much earlier on, been immediately scrambling back to Air Force One in order to simply get it in flight and off the ground to, literally, remain “on top” of this clearly severe, and, U.S. Domestically/Continentally-wise, i.e., even compared to the Pearl Harbor Attacks, unprecedented situation. [This ABC News documentary offers a “Behind the Scene” look at the U.S. Government during the 9/11 events].
All this to indeed stressingly say that it certainly was not at all “normal/natural” that human passions did not prevail at that very moment.[9] [10]
Ironically, or interestingly, enough, George W. Bush has said that he had felt that God had expressedly placed him in the position of the U.S. Presidency, and that he saw the 9/11 events was the very reason why (see in here), and though his eventual actions in particularly the unlawful war in Iraq went on to greatly discredit that claim for many, I can actually see, in the light of his, at the very time, calm/non-panicking and measured reaction, how God may have indeed intervened here to have him in power then (cf. Dan 2:21), i.e., just for that key non-panicking demeanor as something to the contrary could have easily instigated a quasi-blind (“pre-emptive”) nuclear reaction, and even confrontation, particularly if another nuclear-armed country was hit.[11]
In Bush’s almost readable: “I got it!!” (non-)reaction, it could almost be seen/suspected that that is the very point where he started to “understand” why, as he claims, ‘he had been called to/placed in the U.S. Presidency.’ And it would have been that “higher knowledge” which permitted him to keep his cool here, indeed taking his infamously renown “Texas cowboy swagger’ to an ultimate confidence level which effectively is saying to, e.g., a running away prey: “you can run all you want, (and advantageously tire yourself out)... I’ll still get you.” Case in point, that actually calm and tauntingly confident swagger (which however did not lead to proper decisions later, when then faced with an actually perceived actionable threat in, supposedly “Iraq”)), was seen in (1) his infamous “Bring 'em on” call to Al-Quaeda insurgents entering Iraq to fight U.S. troops there, and (2) the famous shoe throwing incident during a press conference of his while in Iraq. In fact, it can be conversely argued that it is George Bush’s infamous, quasi-, if not actually, moronic, simple-mindedness which made him the “perfect” candidate to be in Office then, as Al-Quaeda was then, by at least 1995-1996 for specifically the 9/11 plot, and certainly, as mentioned here, since 1982, (as seen in the 1993 WTC retaliatory bombing/destruction attempt), intent on, (as the 9/11 Commission revealed the U.S. was aware of before 9/11), striking America right on/in its “Native Soil”. So really a concoction of: a controlling/mastering “moronic” attitude which, as typical of such mindsets, indifferently does not bother to take into consideration the full implications/end of an action, (as indeed repeatedly seen with Bush during his presidency); mixed with a (fictitious/lampoonish, and thus quasi-irrational) confident (“Texan cowboy”) swagger; and tieredly sealed by a theological “knowledge/surety” of ‘being in the (also foreknowing) will of God, were all key in causing George W. Bush to literally sit still and not over-, and indeed not even normally/duly/dutifully, -react then.
So all this to say that I concretely can see here how God caused, as explained next, one of those Four Winds, which the SOP reveals, with indeed “wind” being consistently symbolic in the Bible of a “spirit” (e.g., John 3:8; -and thus is often confused with one’s “soul”, -which is really actually one’s “psyche”), involves “human passions” (cf. 20MR 269.2) [which is why warring conflict is symbolized in the Bible as: ‘winds (=“human passions”) blowing upon waters’ (= “peoples” (Rev 17:15); -which indeed accurately represented the militaristic way (cf. Isa 17:12-13a) in which the neo-world’s leading (i.e., most influential) hegemonies (Babylon to Rome) would come into power (Dan 7:2-3)]. And as it was implicated in Tierney receiving his vision right when ‘the second plane was blowing up after impact’, thus after the formation of its fire ball, I perceivingly, and also understandingly,[12] see, based on Tierney’s statement and supporting developments, that at that very moment that: one wind, namely, as discussed next, the ‘geo-human passion’ in regards to conflict and war, was held back by God so that things from then on did not de-ravel/devolve as they quite “naturally” should have. It was not that there would not be any more damage that day, but it would be that despite it then being understood right at that second WTC impact that, as even news anchors collagely immediately said that: ‘America was under attack’, [13] God, from then on, was acting to cause and help cause, long prepared for, “cooler heads” to prevail here, even by whatever exploited aiding means necessary.
To that Divinely-appeasing end, I see that the delaying of the Fourth Plane, Flight 93 on the tarmac for 42 minutes until 8:42, as well as the manifestly non-conforming delaying of 16 extra minutes of the hijackers in that plane before they moved to take control of that plane, whereas all of the others did so within 30 minutes, of takeoff, all contributed to really taming the spirits and human passions that day, even allowing for American to enjoy a “psychological victory” in the rapidly known news that an attack foiling had been done on Flight 93, for the passenger aboard then had the time to become well informed of what was really going on and to, indeed with actually, knowingly, nothing to lose then, [although they “rationally” actually simply wanted to take back flying control of the plane], take averting measures.
So with an almost spiritually perceivable sound, metaphorically-speaking, the oxygen that was sucked in by the fireball that erupted upon the Second Plane strike, vacuatingly made way for God’s tempering Spirt to rush in on the pivotal vacuum of that developing scene and indeed result in prevailing over any pondered or potential rash reactions, thus indeed causing, again, one of the Four Winds, to be restrained here, and then securely held back from then.
One of the Four Winds Withheld
Succinctly explained here, I have been saying that I do see/believe that “one of Four Winds” was withheld right at, and from, the instance of that Second Plane Strike, just as James Tierney says he was then shown in vision, because, as discussed in this post, I exegetically/theologically/prophetic see that the “Four Winds” are indeed: ‘Four distinct (types of) Winds’, meaning that they do not all affect the same key, ‘Geo-Human Passion’. So as explained in that post, I see that these winds cover the chief and potent geo-areas of (with corresponding Four Living Creatures, and, as also explained in that post, the joint (i.e., Church Militant (SDA) vs. Church Triumphant (NJK)) Israel (Cardinal Point) Camp View/Understanding):
1. Religion (Ox) [North vs. West]
2. Geo-Politics (Lion) [South vs. East]
3. Socio-Economics (Man) [West vs. South]
4. Supernaturalism/Spiritualism (Eagle) [East vs. North]
And so it is my studied out view that God had actually been working since the times of EGW, and from the time when the Four Winds were then withheld for a second time starting around a little after 1888, given the Church failures then, indeed even halting a start of the Latter Rain as the SOP had observed that it had begun to fall in ca. 1888+ (RH, November 22, 1892 par. 7; cf. 2SM 114.1). Giving how God gradually works to fulfill prophecy (=Isa 46:9-11, cf. this post) by gradually developing the various elements which will culminate in the priorly “declared” (Isa 46:10) fulfilment, it is almost like the braking of a moving vehicle. I.e., it can be done by no longer accelerating and having the vehicle coast to an soon stop, or that stopping can be precipitated by braking, and that as hard as needed. However in both cases, barring an accident of course, the stopping of that momentum will require some time (= “braking distance”). And so it is the case with propheitcally pertinent/significant events that God had variously begun to set in motion towards a possible future prophetic fulfilment. If/When there comes to be a need to halt such a started and on-course fulfilment (=Jer 18:9-10), then, when those event fulfillments are not entirely dependent on a (supernatural) act of God, there is a needed down/“decelarating” time for it to not have the initially ended extent. So that results, as seen in the ca. 1888 potential great prophetic developments involving even Sunday Laws which quite observably fizzled to ‘nothing serious’, in merely shades and shadows of prophetic fulfillments being seen, but these were not really what God had fully intended prior to him having to intervene to alter these fulfilment. And in doing these haltings, God, so as to not reversedly compel faith, with now clearly various faithless people, opts to have a seamless/smooth/‘“normal/normative” adverse course of things’, natural halting vs. a radical/drastic/“out of the blue” supernatural one. That is all a very significant point here because, especially SDA who have a faulty theology that: the future exists; it is set in stone and is (thus) also concretely and precisely known, will see what potentially may actually have been an intended prophetic fulfilment, but when in passes by without fully maturing, they then just wholly dismissively claim/conclude that it was not at all the prophetic case. And they do not at all see nor perceive how it is their own shortcomings which is what had caused that event to not fully develop. And so it is the case with this 9/11 event, where as discussed here, SDA’s official dismissed any prophetic implication especially in regards to an SOP Prophecy in 9T 11-17.[14]
God Having Been Calling Back The Winds
So getting right to the studied out summarizing point here, I see that God had set up the Four Winds for our time to indeed occur around 1996 on. But the SDA’s Church refusal to advance its understandings and raise the standard then, in fact, all things retrospectively considered, instead actually atrophying/retracting from then on, caused the halting of this ‘set up’ and, variously, ‘loosening’, (as the powers restraining hands of the Winds Four Angels were loosening their hold (cf. EW 38.2)), thus with some ‘gusts/breezes having escaped’, to begin to occur from then. And it is those ‘released/escaped gusts/breezes’ which have been seen as “winds” of the actual possible fulfilment. So along this line, I see that, and actually more precisely here, these Four Winds were declaratorily generally all held back around the revelation given in June 1999 (see here), that ‘God was now going to act to judge the SDA Church along the Ezek 8 and Ezek 9 Shaking judgement.’ And then, to this end, the already released gusts/breezes would have to be subsequently redirected in order to complete their holding back. But God purposely allowed these gusts to gently blow upon the Earth for certain “testing”, warning, and awakening purposes.
So I further see, from Biblical/Spiritual studies and observations, that the Four Winds individually came to be held back at different times subsequent to the June 1999 “related declaration”, and in the following order, (with pointed events and dates (and possible name of concerned Mighty Angel -see here) included):
Four Winds Held Back
~EW 37.1a & 38.1a (God the Father & Jesus) [#1 EW 37.1]
-Special Commissioning of Gabriel to Give Order to Hold Winds [June 1999]
~EW 37.1b & 38.1b (Gabriel) [#2 EW 38.1-2]
-...Flight by, and then Signaling of, Gabriel to Four Angels to start Holding Winds [~September 15, 1999]
Ox (Phanuel) [#3 Rev 7:1-3] =Religious Wind
#1 - Testimony to the Church#1 Message [June 21, 2000]
Lion (Sariel) =Geo-Politics/War Wind
#2 - 9/11 Attacks - [September 11, 2001] (‘upon the fireball of Second Plane Strike at precisely at 09:03:01 A.M.’)
Man (Raguel) =Socio-Economics Wind
#3 - 2008 Economic Crisis - [October 3, 2008] (U.S. TARP Bailout Plan Tabled)
Eagle (Remiel) = Supernatural Inspiration Wind
#4 - Satanic Overmastering Influence in response to a then (True) Latter Rain/Loud Cry Work (cf. GC 612.1) - [April 21, 2012] (Official Founding of Church Triumphant)
SDA Testings
It is interesting to see that leading up to each of those distinct individual winds holding back, which had been decreed to be held back from God’s initiating decision here in June 1999, as mentioned before, God still allowed for escaped breezes, and for them to have a partial, and applicably so, fulfilment, and all that in order to test the pertinent professions of, pointedly here, SDA’s. And when they failed, the gust of wind was then ended, having by then, or shortly thereafter, fully done its testing purpose in regards to them. It simultaneously did a correctively awakening work with non SDA’s getting them to better their destructive ways. And the fact that a wind was held before the SDA testing was completed shows that they were indeed not intended to have a fate-reversing end, but, as presciently expected by God, just a concretizing demonstrating of what was indeed in the heart of those subject to this test (cf. Deut 13:1-3). This observation and understanding specifically is as follows:
First Wind - Testimony to the Church #1 Message [June 21, 2000] - Revealed that SDA’s, despite their flaunting of Higher Education capabilities and knowledge, were not interested in engaging in a deeper, precise (i.e., exegetical) and harmoniously/conclusively unifying study of God’s word, but worshipfully preferred, thinking as First Centuries Jews that this wasn’t the right thing to do, persisting their traditional understandings and wasteful/confusing approaches instead.
Second Wind - 9/11 Attacks [September 11, 2001] - By their willfully blind denial of the SOP revelation and prophecy on that event (See my comments here), and indeed through their above non-aptitude in proper Biblical study, SDA’s revealed that they much preferred to be “politically correct” rather than being fearful of, and obedient to, God instead, and faithfully fulfilling, even in some applicable degree, their judgement warning mission. (I.e., they were afraid that if they claimed that the SOP had prophesied the 9/11 Events (which it surely did), they would be, particularly in those touchily-sensitive days soon after 9/11, at least unofficially, proscribed as non-patriotic people. So like Pilate, they “cautiously” preferred to (effectively) throw ‘the Testimony of Jesus under the bus (see here) in order to pay (“sympathetic”) homage to Caesar instead’ (John 19:12; cf. 11:49-50; Mark 8:38).)
Third Wind - 2008 Economic Crisis [October 3, 2008] - As fully discussed in this post, though David Gates’ efforts, due mainly having been made fearful by encountered faithlessness (=Zeph 3:13 vs. Rev 14:5), were increasingly not blameless, with, chiefly, various shades of guile marring/discrediting his overall rallying and acting message, yet, as his many speaking engagement in virtually the whole Global SDA Church revealed, thus indicating a certain profession of “belief” in his messages, SDA’s just proved that they were really not willing to financially/materially sacrifice for the cause of God’s Work and Truth. So while they were glad to hear about sermons and talks on ‘the, even definitely-timed, nearness of the Second Coming’, they just were not willing to make any sacrifice to aid it on. Indeed, comically enough, they, probably out of faulty theology thought that: ‘if it is going to happen at a “definite time”, then why ‘jump the gun’ and expend anything before “this specific end” even begins to happens.’ So Gates’ unbiblical mixing in of “definite time” in his sermons helped to reveal that, like the Rich Young Ruler, those SDA’s, who explicitly or tacitly, welcomedly accepted this message, just did not want to part with their treasured belongings and follow in Christ’s self-denying path.
Fourth Wind - Supernatural Inspiration Wind (& Latter Rain Withholding) [April 21, 2012] - As in Christ’s aborted last gasp effort to try to save Jerusalem and Israel at His Triumphal Entry, He abruptly interrupted it, deciding not to act to reverse what the wayward people had decreed for themselves. Indeed that is the pointed message of the prophecy in Zech 11. He decided to let this rebellious people suffer the due consequences of their waywardness, and withheld the Divine Blessing that He could have still at that point mercifully imparted upon them. In an exactly similar way, the saving, True Latter Rain Blessing that the SDA Church could have received will also be withheld, and with that “full light” (Rev 18:1) turned off, SDA’s will be allowed to walk in the darkness of their preferred ways and stumble upon whatever obstacle is strewn along that path. And it indeed will duly all catastrophically end, as revealed to EGW in 1908 (see here). Can’t help/save people who, in the blinding pride of their carnal and base hearts don’t want to be saved, and that because they don’t think that they need any “saving”.
So in a brief summary to James Tierney 9/11 vision here, as I said, I do believe that it was a genuine revelation from God, indeed knowing that God can indeed give such pointedly timed revelation, however what follows in Tierney’s explanations and “Biblical Support” is merely the fruit of Tierney’s various non-exegeticalness in regard to proper Biblical study. Indeed what follows is merely a perfect demonstration of “proof-texting” where interpretations and meanings are shallowly claimed from surface readings and assumed understandings. And that is all quite fitting for SDA’s who have indifferently preferred to subscribe to such an approach, particularly when this has been tolerated with/from their “pastoral shepherds”.
So Ezek 14:1-5, 7 is being fulfilled here, and, most importantly, as I repeatedly warned Tierney (see e.g., here), trying to understand a revelation of God while also denying His Law is an exercise in harmful futility. (e.g., Lam 2:9; Ezek 7:26) Just ask the billions of Christians who claim to understand the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation while refusing to heed the (letter of the Law of) God’s True Sabbath. The same recursively applies today to SDA’s who are refusing to heed the Spirit of God’s True Sabbath. As God involved in the Deut 13:1-3 testing, the obedience of His Law wholly trumps any “prophetic revelation”.
9/11 Vision Conclusion
So God showed through Tierney here that the possible “Military Wind” was withheld on 9/11, and indeed starting long before it in the pre-history and plannings of the Attacks, so that, as EW 85.3 states: ‘not prevent work of Third Angel, the ‘True and Full Sabbath of God Mighty Sealing Angel Gabriel’ (Rev 7:1-3ff; see details here). And it could actually be seen if that “angry horse military wind” had not been withheld here, the other three types of winds would have been naturally also released.
James Tierney’s Other Revelation/Prophetic Claims
I do not have the time now to protractedly deal with Tierney’s other claims of visions and dreams, (nor his derived private prophecies), but from just by my rather in depth evaluative analysis of them, I can say that I believe that, like the above-discussed 9/11 one, the direct revelations themselves were indeed from God, however, again, what he goes on to variously claim for them, is mostly merely his shoddily wrong, non-exegetical, proof-texting and subjective understanding of them. So summarily and succinctly said here in regard to some of the main other revelations he has made public:
The Red Heifer's "Bloody Sweat" - In the line of what I commented there, he more than less rightly understands that revelation with its pointed meaning of: ‘entering into a similar Gethsemane experience as Christ, even in regards to the present-day “numbering” of those who can now constitute the prophesied 144,000 group’, however because Tierney is refusing to accept that one of the Chief sins that needs to be repented of here and abandoned is that of selfishness, as reveredly, entrenchedly present in Capitalism which he also espouses, that “sealing” work can actually never be done/completed in him nor anyone else who adheres to that ‘spurious anti-sabbatical dogma’.
Droplets of the last plagues are falling... - This account of Tierney is manifestly not a prophecy of his, but merely an assuming claim that: ‘the manifestation in weather of large chunks of ice falling from the sky is in indicative fulfillment of the hailstone prophecy in Revelation’ (see Rev 8:7; 16:21)[15]. Indeed Tierney repeatedly makes claims such as here that: “I know it was a warning from the Father”, but doesn’t bother to transparently and objectively explain how he would “know (vs. even merely “believe”) this”. So, as many others have rightly observed, by insisting of making such “pontifical claims” he is actually allowing his human nature, to make this prophetic gifting turn into a cult of himself where he does not have to explain himself, and all that he states/claims must be accepted as the ‘truth from the Father”.
"I dreamed of the wall in Jerusalem, before it was built" - From having received a most startling sudden impression when viewing related news events in late September 2000, namely, pointedly in regards to the Second Intifada, I do see here the full import of Tierney’s God -given revelation here that concludingly says that: ‘there will not be any “Peace and Safety” in whatever efforts the West and Israel is trying to make in this much wider Militant Arabs/Islam vs. Them conflict’. And the actual, and full, implication here, is that the meaning of that “Peace and Safety” allusion from 1 Thess 5:3 involves the “Thief in the Night” issue which is prophetically pivotally added to it in regards to the War of Har-Mageddon Battle (Rev 16:15). And as the also related Rev 3:1-6 message, which is a warning message that also applies to the Shaking of God’s Israel (cf. LDE 232.4- LDE 233.1), involves, it is an event which produces 144,000 and God’s ideal Sixth Church of Philadelphia.
It needs to be stated here, to help balance things here, as Tierney manifestly believes that God had given him here a vision of a future wall that would be build in Israel, that this wall had been in planning since 1994 and some parts of it were raised up then. Indeed by June 2001, there already existed a 3 mile long, 8 foot high section of it in Israel. (Cf. here). Indeed ‘the first section of the wall (as slabs of concrete contiguous for miles) that stood as a barrier, was constructed during the Oslo accords negotiations in 1994. That section followed the border between the Jewish Bat Hefer and Arab Tulkarm communities.’
So God may have simply been showing Tierney a wall that already existed in some form in Israel. And in regards to the gate which Tierney mentioned, which I don’t see existed on that initial, strictly barrier, walling, God was probably showing Tierney either what was being needfully planned, or what was indeed needed as a next step in making this wall acceptable and also securely more effective.
It is furthermore to me significant that, while Tierney claims to have seen a specific sign in three languages, which he posted a supposed photo of on his blog post, that he oddly does not exactly say what it actually says. I.e., the sign reads:
“Any person who passes or damages the fence endangers his life.”
but Tierney “quotingly”(??) claimed that it said/says:
“anyone who damages or passes this fence endangers their life”
Of course this may be explained away as a mere summative restatement, however, from similar experience, I am more inclined to think that Tierney had been shown a sign with a similar expression/statement, but not the exact one which a real life sign had. Yet, at best, he was shown an already existing sign, or a very similar one, but probably not an exact ‘future sign’, and even merely one in planning.
It is also significant to note that Tierney says his ‘Massive Wall’ vision was given ca. 1 month after his 9/11 vision, thus around Oct 11, 2001. As, as shown above, a massive wall in Israel was physically already in existence then, and plans for the current much longer one were well established, since the U.S. led “War on Terror” had begun on October 7, 2001, with Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan, that is indeed why I am more inclined to see that this ‘False Efforts to have “Peace and Safety”’ vision was here veiledly, more widely given in relation to those then started, (and still going on), “War of Terror” efforts, which indeed, since ca. 1948, has its genesis and focal point in the Israel-Palestinian Conflict. The 9/11 Events was simply another, though heightened Battle in that overspilling conflict. So the vision would be more widely indicating that even such militaristic efforts would not bring the sought for “Peace and Safety”, as indeed seen today in a war in Afghanistan that, beyond all expectations, is not yet won or resolved, and really has only served to breed more Islamic Militants throughout the Arab world, even within Western countries.
Post Script 09-06-2013 - During an email discussion initiated by James Tierney he tried to provide “proof” that oppose my comprehensive statement here that the Israel-Palestine barrier wall existed in some form prior to James having his dream. Well despite his “best” efforts, he has not been able to defeat the wider point that I was making here, with him actually substantiating the also applicable fact that the plans for that wall were manifestly long drafted before he had his dream. (See in pp. 169-217 of this transcripting document.) So still as I had clearly said above, God here merely revealed to Tierney something which already existed in some form in Israel, and pertinently enough, including in detailed drafted plans form. So God was merely here revealing what was soon going to now be expandingly and escalatingly done in Israel, and all to show that even this heightened “Peace and Safety” effort would still not achieve that “band-aidly” sought end. (=the ‘Pending “Second Woe”’ here).
Post Script 09-06-2013 - During an email discussion initiated by James Tierney he tried to provide “proof” that oppose my comprehensive statement here that the Israel-Palestine barrier wall existed in some form prior to James having his dream. Well despite his “best” efforts, he has not been able to defeat the wider point that I was making here, with him actually substantiating the also applicable fact that the plans for that wall were manifestly long drafted before he had his dream. (See in pp. 169-217 of this transcripting document.) So still as I had clearly said above, God here merely revealed to Tierney something which already existed in some form in Israel, and pertinently enough, including in detailed drafted plans form. So God was merely here revealing what was soon going to now be expandingly and escalatingly done in Israel, and all to show that even this heightened “Peace and Safety” effort would still not achieve that “band-aidly” sought end. (=the ‘Pending “Second Woe”’ here).
Tierney’s Experience Dream
An epitomic and prime example of how I see and understand that Tierney is shortsightedly understanding the Divine revelations given to him, indeed due to the justly/duly implicated Ezek 14:1-5, 7 Divine action here, is the vision about his experience from his conversion which he relates here. As I commented on it here and here, his shallow, partial, incomplete and even gravely contradictory, understanding of it is quite symbiotically symbolic of how SDA’s are not fully understanding God’s prophetic message for this time. And this indeed all confirms my understanding that God has powerfully raised up Tierney, as he similarly had done with David Gates, to be that “partial prophet” to SDA’s, i.e., ‘a prophet according to their own idols’, to both genuinely and candidly test them, and also to resultingly have them be self-misguided, by fastening them on their path of destruction. Indeed as shown in this more fuller analysis of this dream of Tierney, he actually comes to find an “enemy-of-my-enemy associate” in the diabolic person who was priorly involved in bringing hellish fire down from heaven (=Rev 13:11-18). Indeed this is all representative of him, as well as other SDA’s, considering the Devil’s snare of Capitalism to be their “helper” and thus “fornicatively” ingesting (= “going along with”) this inebriating Babylonian wine.
Who is the Anti-Christ? The Eighth King of Revelation 17! - I don’t see James Tierney claiming any direct inspiration for this “prophecy” of his here that: ‘after the present Pope Benedict XVI dies, the next one will be an Incarnation of Satan fulfilling the SOP’s Angel of Light, overmastering delusion prophecy.’ Indeed this prediction has no basis in Direct Inspiration but is actually Tierney’s worst Biblical exposition. Again the key fault here is his lack of proper exegesis, preferring a subjectively selective approach, and though I had pointed him here to an exegetical study of that prophecy of Rev 17 & 18 (which he “politely” said he would read, [but I don’t think/see that he ever did]), which reveals that those 7 heads are not 7 Popes, but the Seven historical, most influential world powers which have had, and are still having, a lasting impact on the Devil-inspired cause which has sought to undermine and defeat God’s cause, Tierney still maintains that false, quasi-time setting, prophetic claim.
In fact, he, through shoddy, suspect, spurious and subjective “exegesis”, finds a constrained way to point virtually all of his revelations to that “Eighth Pope-King” Prophecy end. Manifestly for him, he was given this gift of visions and dreams solely to warn of that ‘coming, “next pope” deception.’ Well that is all the Ezek 14:1-5, 7: “false understandings according to ones cherished idols” fallout, which in this case, on top of deficient Biblical study, is addedly misguided by, here, Tierney refusing to accept the primacy of God’s Full Sabbath teaching.
And so, as I also warned another SDA (see e.g., this forum discussion post), namely Henry Hills (username: “His child”), who had claimed that God had variously led him to write several books on a coming “Eighth Pope-King Impersonation” deception, which telling enough, as with all outrightly false SDA prophetic end time scenarios, involves some form/degree of time setting, and which, not surprisingly, is against clear SOP prohibition to the sort, such tacked on understandings will also fail, and probably like David Gates’s own notoriously, object-lessonly, failing set time based predictions, it will serve to, as God had similarly done with apostatised King Saul, most vividly/demonstrably warn other SDA’s to not engage in such proscribed approaches, no matter what degree and extent of “Inspiration” they may have previously had. And this effectuation will serve to eradicate such “gods” from SDA Circles. Or at best, objectively provide to them the actual reason for their failing. Hence is God’s ultimate purpose with His Ezek 14:1-5, 7 approach.
And it pertinently here is important to point out that if God and His Four Angels could hold the Four Winds for at least ca. 113 (from 1888) prior to merely 2001 (151 years since ca. 1850), then He/they can now hold these once again held back winds for, again, however long they need to be. And so there is no desperate “hurry”, as is foundational to Tierney’s claim, to find a soon fulfillement for Final Events during this prolonged time of held back winds.
Post Script 09-06-2013 - In yet another email discussion initiated by a, as I explained, “God-conned” James Tierney documented in this PDF document at pp. 114-116, 148-162, he has futilely tried to substantiate his spurious “Eighth King” view now being newly re-claimed on his blog post. He has also futilely tried to substantiate that is whimsical “Mary = the Woman of Rev 17" view is both proper Biblical interpretation and is in harmony with the SOP (see at pp. 193-199). All of these takes and views have indeed been shown to be yet another wave of false and erroneous “private interpretation” of James of Bible, SOP and/or his own, “testedly” (2 Thess 5:19-22), genuine revelations and/or impression. He continues to be in “half” (2 Cor 3:7-18), or in some areas, complete, darkness as to what the proper understanding of these prophetic revelations are because he fundamentally refuses to heed the, as Biblically presented here, Sabbatical Full Gospel & Righteousness Message and Mandate of Jesus Christ. So indeed like the “moronic” virgins in Matt 25:1-13, he just does not have the ‘oil reserves = Christlike Character” to be able to see into the light that the Bible has for this already started “prolonged time” era. (=RH, February 11, 1896 par. 6|COL 408.1-411.1ff). See that full transcripting document for all those details....
December 29, 2013 - Claim of ‘Rev 17 = Mary’ Dream - All things having been considered this dream claim by James Tierney, (publicly posted here) is the most dubious one I have heard from him. [And seriously/relatedly(??), what’s up with this|this & this??!!!...Losing his calling/religion??!!!....Moreover Tierney does not seem to be, (at least Spiritually), sober there...or that’s just the “state of (out-of-[sober]-)mind/psyche” he needs for that....But I am sure it all was ‘‘worth’ just ‘almost winning’ ‘[mock]American Idol’...{BTW, this (below) is WAR!!!(cf. 1 Sam 21:13)}] Not merely in terms of content and application, but also in terms of personal veracity and origin authenticity. And that is sequiturly because, as seen at the end of his August 4, 2013 posted comment below, and as still (i.e., as of 12-29-13) posted on his blog post (see the online archive), with moreover James not at all being shy to share dreams, visions, revelations or even “unctions” that he says he has, nor ever stating, pointedly in the present case, that he ever had any restriction as to sharing this with others, he never mentions that he had previously had that ‘Rev 17 = Mary dream involving/seeing John the Revelator himself.’ With moreover him actually mentioning other prior, “related” dreams that he had had for (assumedly) that topic. Indeed, quite to the silent contrary, as seen in his comment below, he had actually said, after he claims I had supposedly ‘pressed him for “inspired proof”’ (-which I do not read [p.19ff]/recall to have actually been the main/primary/paramount case; I actually had more been pressing him to be Biblically and exegetically responsible, and in regards to his still maintained erroneous ‘Eight Popes view’, which I moreover did not even think was from any sort of revelation from God to him, so obviously he does not make any difference here, evidently seeing his supposedly always directly inspired claims as good as the Bible): he had actually said, and I quote from below: “I was not deceived in this; I just needed more prophetic pieces of the puzzle to see. I never shared with you how God told me this issue because it was more unction than vision or dream.” He then states that he had shared how God had inspired all this understanding with him...and never mentions anything about having had a dream. But now, on Dec. 15, 2013, he suddenly claims that he long ago had had a dream that John had seen a Marian apparition when he saw the Rev 17 vision from Jesus and that this is what confirms his present view about Pope Francis.
[Originally/Initially Started] Online Communication with James Tierney. (Started here)
[present blog post continuation of communication]:
As you may have seen in my “Testing the Spirits” blog post, I have seen that God has jointly addressed two major and pivotal issues of our day. The first revolves around the Shaking of the SDA Church, and it involves the thorough and candid testing of pointedly SDA’s to ‘see what is really/genuine in their hearts’ (=Gen 22:12; Deut 8:2; 13:1-3; Jer 17:9-10; 2 Chr 32:31) in comparison with their various grandiose professions (e.g., in regards to the Second Coming, the Remnant Message, etc). However, and in regards to the second issue here, just as God followed up His Jer 17:1-18 revelation on the ‘deceitfulness of one’s heart’ (and follow a pointed “Sabbath Reform” exhortation (Jer 17:19-27); God then explicitly reveals how His promises/prophecies are all based on conditions of obedience (Jer 18:1-10). And because Judah had proven in their “heart testing” to stubbornly, actually be ‘evil, God then had to annul any favoring promises/prophesies and instead ‘fashion calamity’ (Jer 18:11-12ff). And, this is where I am seeing that my calling wholly is. I.e., I am seeing, and more and more clearly as I am further “testing the manifested (genuine) Spirits in the SDA Church’, that God is indeed dually addressing both of these possible scenarios at once. If the Church and its Members proves faithful/genuine and/or repent and obey the claims of the word of God on them, both collectively and individually, then only the favoring aspects of the secondary scenario will be fulfilled, all under the blessings in the Latter Rain. However if they prove unfaithful, then the also included adverse consequences, resembling the Ezek 9 destruction will have to be executed as part of that Shaking. There is no getting around that issue that the SDA will be strongly shaken, and I am seeing your revelations and certain of your derived messages, when they prove to be exegetically tenable, are acting to thoroughly test the SDA Church.
So based on that, though I am substantively seeing that, as shown in the Bible and SOP on the Shaking, that the end results in regards to those who will be faithful will be comparatively dismal (perhaps ca. “1 in 20” as the SOP seriously says), there are still that small remnant to gather from the SDA Church (=12,000 from the tribe of Judah in Rev 7:4a). So, I see that it is only if the SDA Church as a majority whole would heed the various Shaking-surviving messages presented in the Bible and SOP, as well as from other despised contemporary sources which I am seeing have indeed been raised by God (such as those cited on my “Testing” post (a true prophet is never ascertain by how popular and well-liked/accepted he is by the main body (see Matt 23:29-36)), will it be able to complete as prophesied the Final Event Scenario stipulated through EGW. If they do not, then God will have to continue to hold the winds, as you saw in your vision, but for a much longer time then (as He has the All Mighty Power to do so), so that His Gospel work can be properly done (=Rev 7:3). In other words, God will justly act to do what is best for the redemption of this world and if SDA prove to not be able to accomplish the plans set out through EGW then God will implement a greater and more glorious work with a new group/generation of people/believers combined with the SDA Shaking victorious ones. (=LDE 59-62; 15MR 292.3-4) And so I have long seen, as initially shown to me by God, that God has (quasi-preemptively) raised me to tangibly prepare that secondary/alternative course, while he then has been engaging in testing the SDA Church as per the Shaking, mainly according to all of the light they have had and could and should have become well acquainted with.
So while I am, with such Biblical guidance, instruction/mandate and confirming lights, not seeing/interpreting that your revelations as you are, e.g., to the “end” that you are expecting, indeed because I do not see that there will be a significant enough, if any, survivors of the SDA Church Shaking for God to be able to Finish the Work through them as it needs to be, (which then results in us having completely opposite understanding of the Dan 11 prophecy. (See my view here), it indeed is not because, as stated on my “Testing” post, because I think you are making false prophecies, but merely because the spiritual “circumstances on the ground” with SDA’s and in the SDA Church will prevent such a rapid and literal EGW completing scenario. As I have seen it, God’s grandeur “alternative” has long been engaged and it will indeed be much more successful, particularly given the demands of the Gospel in regards to it needing to be accepted by Faith to be effective.
This may help you to understand the link that I had made with your understanding of Jerusalem East Gate with (and which identically is) the one which is spoken of in Ezek 43:1-5; cf. 47:1-12ff) (As I see from my new comment notification emails for your blog that you have deleted the two comments you had made in regards to my view on this posted above.) In the alternative scenario, if/when the SDA Church fails, the then temporal (Kingdom) eschatological fulfilment vs. the spiritual (Church) one, will come to more literally and tangibly involve Ezekiel’s eschatological prophecies. Indeed, as discussed here, Ezekiel’s prophecies are the foundational part of the “Scroll that is (yet) to be unrolled” as EGW tracely understood (6T 17.1).
To the latter point on this possible, and now most likely, alternative “end”, I am repeatedly surprised by the deliberate genius of the Heavenly intelligence to imperceptively incorporate elements for both possible scenarios, (with now the secondary one steadily, increasingly being much more likely than the first), within the same prophecy. The first instance of this which I have now long seen is in the prophecy of Dan 11. I.e., I could have had a scenario with involves the King of the North being the Papacy and thus being Evil, but it just as well, from the ambiguity in the text’s syntax, vocabulary, and depicted action, has the possibility of being an entity which is acting for God to restore God’s Israel by restoring and working with the 10 North tribes. (See my Dan 11 post). I am also, most fascinatingly, repeatedly seeing this as I am studying the various revelations of contemporary/modern SDA Prophets (i.e., people who have had genuine prophetic dreams and visions as cited in my “Testing” post). A perfect example of this is the ‘I am Coming [soon]’ statement made in some of Ernie Knoll’s dreams which I have discussed here. In all of this it is not that God is being deceitful, not at all, but it actually is that, given the actual Lukewarm state of Laodicea here, versus the mostly cold state of OT Israel, God then has to correspondingly apply a “lukewarm” version of Ezek 14:1-8 where the raise up prophet then will not be pointedly made to prophesy evil things, but, and testingly so, prophesy of the righteous things that the Church half/also believes but is not actually acting on these things as they should.
Other SDA “Prophets”
Jesus “the Great Adjudicator”
* From Knoll’s Dream #29:
So with Knoll’s priorly seeing the Herald and Gabriel as two distinct Angels, in his Dream #53, he may have been seeing a prior (=Historical (vs. Eschatological) Rev 5) appearance of Gabriel, vs. the present physical form of, most noticeably ‘having dimples’ which the Herald/Gabriel now has, i.e., since his coming/commission/incarnation for, as fully discussed here, his Four-Winds holding, and then wheat-from-tares separating, work in the SDA Church and its prophesied Shaking event.
Most significantly here, see my later understanding here for who exactly Knoll’s appearing “Herald” angel may actually be.
Inspiration of the book "Creeping Compromise"
Divine Purpose in Allowing Evil Angel Counsel
Most Stringent SDA Shaking Further Specific Revelation
The Infamous "Tithing (Storehouse)" Issue
The ‘KJV-only’ Testimony (e.g., {#24-4})
(1) God was actually against the ‘Ordination of Women as Pastors/Leaders’ which is presently being studied out by the General Conference, for as Biblically presented in here, there is much Biblical support showing that God no longer (needs to) make/s this leadership gender distinction in the New Covenant. Perfect example, the inherently ordained leadership and ministry of Ellen White.
[This Ernie Knoll section will continue to be gradually added to in convenient/necessary time.]
Some (joined) Online Discussion Forums where I discuss this Testing of Ernie Knoll:
Club Adventist: “So why do people fall for people like Ernie Knoll”
Our Sword: “False Prophet Ernie Knoll Admits He Was Lying” (Most of my prior commenting were deleted on that blog post, so see this PDF print copy of the original discussion. As stated therein, any subsequent statement made on that blog that I may wish to address will be done in this endnote[25])
Christian Forum: “Ernie Knoll not a prophet?”
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll -The Prophet of Emptiness
Topix (SDA) Forum - Why is God keeping Ernie Knoll so clueless about the real world?
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll is an Obvious Fraud (Part 1)
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll is an Obvious Fraud (Part 2)
Post Script 02-15-2013: With the recent news of Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation, it is not at all surprising to see those who hold to this ‘Eight King/Pope’ view here (cf. here, here and here) literally gloatingly come back to the forefront to claim that ‘prophecy is fulfilling before our eyes’. There is however something very pivotal to learn from these developments As I told James Tierney during his initiated/resumed attempt to discuss this issue with me, (see in here, in the February 13+ 2013 emails; -some exegetical reasons as to why that view is not sound are also stated there), which he quickly removed himself from as it would involve him discussing a subject which he does not want to, and that is the one of God’s/Christ’s actual/full Righteousness standard before the end (e.g., Isa 58; Matt 25:31-46; LDE 218-219; DA 825.4): as Tierney’s teachings and prophetic claims do not (especially clearly/prominently/explicitly) involve this Fuller Sabbatical and Gospel stipulation, then as God had warned Israel in Deut 13:1-5 of what He may “testingly” allow to happen, even if John Paul II was “resurrected” and installed as the successing Pope now, I still would not believe in those Eight King predictions. SDA’s who have preferred to curtail the Gospel mandate of Christ while most likely fall under these developments, of course, not into believing in this “Angel of Light” new Pope, but conversely, and in enjoining/“validating” accordance to what they have been now long been indoctrinated/conditioned to here, and that by many in also the formal leadership of the Church, into literally “running to the hills” in the expectation that Sunday Laws are going to be soon passed, as will a Death Decrees for violators, and thus “Great Time of Trouble persecutions” (=2 Thess 2:9-12).
So just like the SOP prophesied Angel of Light Deception (see EW 266-269; GC 624.2-6251ff) will serve to test the world at large, especially non-Remnant Christians, if they will believe in fulfilling “signs and wonders” or in the word of God, the same test will be performed upon SDA’s, and all leading into the full transpiring of the (Fuller/Biblical) Shaking of the SDA Church (which tellingly is the next topic in EW p. 269-273). And through all of this will be done the sternly judging: ‘heart idols/gods (and chaff) purging of God, and that through ‘genuine prophets’ (i.e., individuals which He has indeed raised and is inspiring)’ spoken of in Ezek 14:1-8. Only heeding the full counsel of God will keep a person on the right track.
Post Script 03-14-2013: So, quite deservingly succinctly said, since it was Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio who was elected as the Roman Catholic Pope (=Pope Francis), then all of those popular SDA “Eighth King” views (referenced above) have all been rightly rendered mooted and proven to have been false prophesying. See much more on my response at the end of this document (a March 13, 2013 copy of his blog post which he says he will be changing now) in the comments which were made to James Tierney who, typically like a, allusion and pun intended, ‘(spiritual) child blown about by every wind’ (=Eph 4:14), -(tellingly enough resulting from also having false or no Divine prophecy (Eph 4:12ff)), evidently no longer sees a need to ‘(most) prominently/publicly apologize’ (as done here) for his false prophesying. Clearly he does not want to submit to how God is actually using him, (and all due to his own self limiting of God’s by him rejecting God’s advancing and fuller light. A very similar thing transpired with William Miller in the Great Disappointment and his ensuing refusal to accept the Biblical Truths discovered by some (future SDA’s) who had been his followers. (EW 257.1-258.2)). Suit yourself James! God’s word is clear. An, especially proven, and moreover non-repentant and/or penitent, false prophet does not need to be feared! (Deut 18:22)
-Interestingly enough, James now states that: ‘God has revealed to one of his pastors that, [ala. William Miller], ‘he got the timing right, but the event wrong’....Well, actually “relatedly” it is interesting to see how Pope Francis, compared to his prior to predecessors (esp. John Paul II; and Benedict XVI) is himself quite big on Humanitarianism and Liberation Theology which actually harmonize with my PhilanthroCapitalism coalition view of the Eighth Head-King(dom)-Mountain. See more on this in here.)
James Tierney however also thinks that there was something prophetically significant in that famous seagull which landed on the Sistine’s Chapel smokestack when the eyes of the world were rivetted to it then...LOL!!! Well that is typically indeed the next folly developments of those who obstinately refused to be disciplined by God!!
...Next on God’s agenda to ‘destroy the heart idols and false worship sanctuaries built up by SDA’s’ (=Amos 7:7-9; Ezek 14:1-8), and thus who most unbiblically believe that God is “handcuffed” by unfolding events and has no power to suppress and annul them; thus people who have not learned the undeniable SDA Israel-like Historical lesson that God will always act on this injunctive altering principle whenever necessary (=Jer 18:1-10; 15MR 292.3-4), as relatedly already done through what was allowed in the episodes of David Gates’ imminent doom false(d) prophesyings, and as indeed done around the 1888 events (see in this post): the suppressing and/or coming to naught of any arising current ‘Sunday Law’ movement! Only, as discussed here, truly and fully fulfilling the Matt 24:14 mandate, and that in the light of: the present needs of the day vs. the blessed capability of God’s People will ever bring about the end -(and not even, necessarily, "all prophecies" as Tierney claims/believes (Jer 18:7-10))!! (cf. LDE 59-61. See such a cautionary/reminding qualifying/caveating point by Adrian Webster in this NZYC 2013 presentation [ca. 47:16ff])
Post Script 09-06-2013 - In yet another email discussion initiated by a, as I explained, “God-conned” James Tierney documented in this PDF document at pp. 114-116, 148-162, he has futilely tried to substantiate his spurious “Eighth King” view now being newly re-claimed on his blog post. He has also futilely tried to substantiate that is whimsical “Mary = the Woman of Rev 17" view is both proper Biblical interpretation and is in harmony with the SOP (see at pp. 193-199). All of these takes and views have indeed been shown to be yet another wave of false and erroneous “private interpretation” of James of Bible, SOP and/or his own, “testedly” (2 Thess 5:19-22), genuine revelations and/or impression. He continues to be in “half” (2 Cor 3:7-18), or in some areas, complete, darkness as to what the proper understanding of these prophetic revelations are because he fundamentally refuses to heed the, as Biblically presented here, Sabbatical Full Gospel & Righteousness Message and Mandate of Jesus Christ. So indeed like the “moronic” virgins in Matt 25:1-13, he just does not have the ‘oil reserves = Christlike Character” to be able to see into the light that the Bible has for this already started “prolonged time” era. (=RH, February 11, 1896 par. 6|COL 408.1-411.1ff). See that full transcripting document for all those details....
December 29, 2013 - Claim of ‘Rev 17 = Mary’ Dream - All things having been considered this dream claim by James Tierney, (publicly posted here) is the most dubious one I have heard from him. [And seriously/relatedly(??), what’s up with this|this & this??!!!...Losing his calling/religion??!!!....Moreover Tierney does not seem to be, (at least Spiritually), sober there...or that’s just the “state of (out-of-[sober]-)mind/psyche” he needs for that....But I am sure it all was ‘‘worth’ just ‘almost winning’ ‘[mock]American Idol’...{BTW, this (below) is WAR!!!(cf. 1 Sam 21:13)}] Not merely in terms of content and application, but also in terms of personal veracity and origin authenticity. And that is sequiturly because, as seen at the end of his August 4, 2013 posted comment below, and as still (i.e., as of 12-29-13) posted on his blog post (see the online archive), with moreover James not at all being shy to share dreams, visions, revelations or even “unctions” that he says he has, nor ever stating, pointedly in the present case, that he ever had any restriction as to sharing this with others, he never mentions that he had previously had that ‘Rev 17 = Mary dream involving/seeing John the Revelator himself.’ With moreover him actually mentioning other prior, “related” dreams that he had had for (assumedly) that topic. Indeed, quite to the silent contrary, as seen in his comment below, he had actually said, after he claims I had supposedly ‘pressed him for “inspired proof”’ (-which I do not read [p.19ff]/recall to have actually been the main/primary/paramount case; I actually had more been pressing him to be Biblically and exegetically responsible, and in regards to his still maintained erroneous ‘Eight Popes view’, which I moreover did not even think was from any sort of revelation from God to him, so obviously he does not make any difference here, evidently seeing his supposedly always directly inspired claims as good as the Bible): he had actually said, and I quote from below: “I was not deceived in this; I just needed more prophetic pieces of the puzzle to see. I never shared with you how God told me this issue because it was more unction than vision or dream.” He then states that he had shared how God had inspired all this understanding with him...and never mentions anything about having had a dream. But now, on Dec. 15, 2013, he suddenly claims that he long ago had had a dream that John had seen a Marian apparition when he saw the Rev 17 vision from Jesus and that this is what confirms his present view about Pope Francis.
Now that indeed is all way too “suddenly convenient” for me to merely accept as actually truthful. So I can only see that in the present claim, James, whether out of outright malice, or (relatively) at best, out of by now complete self-delusion, has merely reverse-prophesied his present understanding into whatever, now self-aggrandized&embellished, “unction” he may have priorly had been given when reading that “Thunder of Justice” Marian apparition book.
From myself having plenty of experience in (mainly, as instructed, privately) recording (250+) clear visions, dreams and impressions that I had, and which I later more fully understood (cf. the one linkedly referred to here), I actually know and can see how tempting it is to do such “reverse interpreting and inserting” when things are later better understood. But I have most resolutely refrained from doing this, preferring instead to journalistically document those experiences and let them candidly speak for themselves, as actually much more evidentiary and insightful of God’s workings and intentions. And when further understanding come, then I distinctly add them in running commentary notes. But clearly James does not have any such transparency and documentiary scruples, and as quite typical with him, others must just bow to such Papish claims of his.
Thus the only originally valid thing from James’s supposed “John & Rev 17” dream that he may have had was that he simply saw, as actually simply stated in the Bible: that John the Revelator had seen a woman, and was quite amazed/perplexed, even “mesmerized” by her when he saw her, and then the angel came to help him snap out of that default admiring “wondering” by going on to explain the “mystery” of the woman. All these other things about ‘this woman being Mary’, and that ‘John was soon admiring of her because he had been close to Mary’, and all of the other statements by James in that claimed dream, are quite manifestly to me, just mere reverse-interpreting, substitutive additions and claims by James from his present (eisegetical) understandings.
And, for prophetic understanding here, John was amazed by that woman and “wondered” after her simply because he knew it was the same faithful woman who had gone into the wilderness, and, as many Christians do with that woman which, as Biblical studies show, is actually the “God Bless America” (American) Protestant Church established upon (=riding) the United States, many likewise just defaultly wonder after her...until her prophetic “mystery” is properly studied out which reveals that it, and its Capitalistic ways, are actually Satanically evil, and it is not at all the faithful lineage of those who had “protested” against Biblical error during the 1260 year (538-1798 A.D.) period.
Now, and quite ironically enough, and quite telling to me about the real, and cautionary intent of that dream to James, linked to his prior claimed Divine warning: “do not go to Satan to learn about me”, that dream itself is representative of James own reaction and experience. Indeed by him insisting despite his claims, as long pointed out to him, not standing at all in the light of proper exegesis, (i.e., (and quite contrary from James’ glossing ‘SOP-continuance’ gloating), as EGW herself also understood, the “woman” in Rev 17, had been the one, and the Church, who/which had fled to the wilderness in Rev 12:6 but had by now drastically changed, and priorly had been the Israel of God which had given birth to the Messiah and then upheld His NT Church cause on Earth. (Rev 12:1-5; cf. Mic 4:10; Jer 4:31). As seen here Catholics see this Rev 12 woman as Mary herself, and this is exactly the same understanding that James effectively has in seeing her manifestation in Rev 17 as being Mary, contrary to proper exegetical understanding, confirmed by SOP/EGW statements.
And speaking of pertinent “proper exegesis” here, in this presentation on Revelation’s symbolic nature [see at 07:45-13:44-14:53ff], Ranko Stefanovic has rightly given as a great sample demonstration that when the Revelation especially explicitly mentions the appearance of a “sign”, as it does with the Rev 12:1ff “woman” it is certainly not speaking of something literal. (cf. Rev 12:3). And so, as that ‘woman sign’ is the one which is brought up again in Rev 17, it cannot then be representative of a literal woman, but still the (daughter) Israel of God = the Daughter of Zion (cf. Jer 6:2).
So it ironically is James who ‘has gone to Satan (through the RCC) to learn about God’s prophetic truth’ instead of letting the Bible interpret himself. So in that prior dream (if anything about it is actually true), God had long warned him not to go to Catholic claims and experience to try to (reversely) find interpretations of Biblical prophecy. Instead James should have invested himself into proper Biblical exegesis, because the Bible itself will always trump any opposing personal experiences (=1Thess 5:19-22). James concludes by saying: “God was telling me not to read the writings of Satan to see the fulfillment of prophecy”, but he is still doing this by “reversedly” basing his interpretations and views squarely on what the present Pope is doing and on Marian apparitions and not on the properly, exegetically studied out Biblical text.
It is likewise quite ironically interesting to read James say in conclusion about his dream: “So John's attentions were arrested from a righteous path to following satan's aparitions.” for that is indeed exactly what has occurred with James here. Indeed as I had long warned him, by indifferently choosing to disregard the anchoring Full/True Righteousness of Christ message, to instead “wonder” after his supposed revelations, he himself has had this ‘divergence from following after Christ’s path of Righteousness to wonder after these Satanic “Marian apparitions” for prophetic interpretations and fulfillment claims. And so, 2 Thess 2:8-11 has been fulfilled here as he has no love for actual Biblical Truth, having set his own experiences over the Word of God itself.
______________________
[Originally/Initially Started] Online Communication with James Tierney. (Started here)
Hello James. You have touched on several issues in your response which involved quite in depth exegetical studies of each topic. I’ll address them as succinctly as possible and as I have dealt with some issues on my blog I’ll at times merely make reference to what is contextually spoken of there.
Indeed, an actual true sign of a revelation of God is that it is multifaceted and can speak to different corresponding situations, even in different times/eras, (i.e., (Primary) Local/Literal vs. (Secondary) Global/Spiritual; and also Historical vs. Eschatological) as repeatedly and consistently seen in Biblical prophecy. (That has been my constant discovery in studying Bible and SOP prophecies, as well as contemporary revelations given to various SDA. See e.g., my presently ongoing discussion, started here, with Eugene Shubert).
Indeed, an actual true sign of a revelation of God is that it is multifaceted and can speak to different corresponding situations, even in different times/eras, (i.e., (Primary) Local/Literal vs. (Secondary) Global/Spiritual; and also Historical vs. Eschatological) as repeatedly and consistently seen in Biblical prophecy. (That has been my constant discovery in studying Bible and SOP prophecies, as well as contemporary revelations given to various SDA. See e.g., my presently ongoing discussion, started here, with Eugene Shubert).
[present blog post continuation of communication]:
As you may have seen in my “Testing the Spirits” blog post, I have seen that God has jointly addressed two major and pivotal issues of our day. The first revolves around the Shaking of the SDA Church, and it involves the thorough and candid testing of pointedly SDA’s to ‘see what is really/genuine in their hearts’ (=Gen 22:12; Deut 8:2; 13:1-3; Jer 17:9-10; 2 Chr 32:31) in comparison with their various grandiose professions (e.g., in regards to the Second Coming, the Remnant Message, etc). However, and in regards to the second issue here, just as God followed up His Jer 17:1-18 revelation on the ‘deceitfulness of one’s heart’ (and follow a pointed “Sabbath Reform” exhortation (Jer 17:19-27); God then explicitly reveals how His promises/prophecies are all based on conditions of obedience (Jer 18:1-10). And because Judah had proven in their “heart testing” to stubbornly, actually be ‘evil, God then had to annul any favoring promises/prophesies and instead ‘fashion calamity’ (Jer 18:11-12ff). And, this is where I am seeing that my calling wholly is. I.e., I am seeing, and more and more clearly as I am further “testing the manifested (genuine) Spirits in the SDA Church’, that God is indeed dually addressing both of these possible scenarios at once. If the Church and its Members proves faithful/genuine and/or repent and obey the claims of the word of God on them, both collectively and individually, then only the favoring aspects of the secondary scenario will be fulfilled, all under the blessings in the Latter Rain. However if they prove unfaithful, then the also included adverse consequences, resembling the Ezek 9 destruction will have to be executed as part of that Shaking. There is no getting around that issue that the SDA will be strongly shaken, and I am seeing your revelations and certain of your derived messages, when they prove to be exegetically tenable, are acting to thoroughly test the SDA Church.
So based on that, though I am substantively seeing that, as shown in the Bible and SOP on the Shaking, that the end results in regards to those who will be faithful will be comparatively dismal (perhaps ca. “1 in 20” as the SOP seriously says), there are still that small remnant to gather from the SDA Church (=12,000 from the tribe of Judah in Rev 7:4a). So, I see that it is only if the SDA Church as a majority whole would heed the various Shaking-surviving messages presented in the Bible and SOP, as well as from other despised contemporary sources which I am seeing have indeed been raised by God (such as those cited on my “Testing” post (a true prophet is never ascertain by how popular and well-liked/accepted he is by the main body (see Matt 23:29-36)), will it be able to complete as prophesied the Final Event Scenario stipulated through EGW. If they do not, then God will have to continue to hold the winds, as you saw in your vision, but for a much longer time then (as He has the All Mighty Power to do so), so that His Gospel work can be properly done (=Rev 7:3). In other words, God will justly act to do what is best for the redemption of this world and if SDA prove to not be able to accomplish the plans set out through EGW then God will implement a greater and more glorious work with a new group/generation of people/believers combined with the SDA Shaking victorious ones. (=LDE 59-62; 15MR 292.3-4) And so I have long seen, as initially shown to me by God, that God has (quasi-preemptively) raised me to tangibly prepare that secondary/alternative course, while he then has been engaging in testing the SDA Church as per the Shaking, mainly according to all of the light they have had and could and should have become well acquainted with.
So while I am, with such Biblical guidance, instruction/mandate and confirming lights, not seeing/interpreting that your revelations as you are, e.g., to the “end” that you are expecting, indeed because I do not see that there will be a significant enough, if any, survivors of the SDA Church Shaking for God to be able to Finish the Work through them as it needs to be, (which then results in us having completely opposite understanding of the Dan 11 prophecy. (See my view here), it indeed is not because, as stated on my “Testing” post, because I think you are making false prophecies, but merely because the spiritual “circumstances on the ground” with SDA’s and in the SDA Church will prevent such a rapid and literal EGW completing scenario. As I have seen it, God’s grandeur “alternative” has long been engaged and it will indeed be much more successful, particularly given the demands of the Gospel in regards to it needing to be accepted by Faith to be effective.
This may help you to understand the link that I had made with your understanding of Jerusalem East Gate with (and which identically is) the one which is spoken of in Ezek 43:1-5; cf. 47:1-12ff) (As I see from my new comment notification emails for your blog that you have deleted the two comments you had made in regards to my view on this posted above.) In the alternative scenario, if/when the SDA Church fails, the then temporal (Kingdom) eschatological fulfilment vs. the spiritual (Church) one, will come to more literally and tangibly involve Ezekiel’s eschatological prophecies. Indeed, as discussed here, Ezekiel’s prophecies are the foundational part of the “Scroll that is (yet) to be unrolled” as EGW tracely understood (6T 17.1).
To the latter point on this possible, and now most likely, alternative “end”, I am repeatedly surprised by the deliberate genius of the Heavenly intelligence to imperceptively incorporate elements for both possible scenarios, (with now the secondary one steadily, increasingly being much more likely than the first), within the same prophecy. The first instance of this which I have now long seen is in the prophecy of Dan 11. I.e., I could have had a scenario with involves the King of the North being the Papacy and thus being Evil, but it just as well, from the ambiguity in the text’s syntax, vocabulary, and depicted action, has the possibility of being an entity which is acting for God to restore God’s Israel by restoring and working with the 10 North tribes. (See my Dan 11 post). I am also, most fascinatingly, repeatedly seeing this as I am studying the various revelations of contemporary/modern SDA Prophets (i.e., people who have had genuine prophetic dreams and visions as cited in my “Testing” post). A perfect example of this is the ‘I am Coming [
So, in summary here the end result of how things will actually work out here will all depend on how the Church responds, particularly to what it professes to believe, and by claiming to firmly believe that EGW was a prophet of God, that comes to include many things, things which the Church is not wholly or properly doing, such as doing all that they can to help those in need (WM 23-62ff = Matt 25:31-46; Isa 58; DA 825.4).
Update June 10, 2017: Pertinently enough, along the lines of what was summarily stated to James Tierney just above, in a Nov. 18, 2016 posting of his, he states that the sermon by Ivor Myers entitled: “When America Goes Beastmode” is: “a powerful prophetic sermon, exactly in light as what God has shown me”. Well going by the ample email (and also online) discussions that I have had with James Tierney, which all patently turn and fizzle on one pointed issue of difference, I am willing to bet that Tierney was not also ‘exactly shown’ the pivotal part of Myers sermons where he, like many other SDA Preachers in recent times, are beginning to see the crucial significance, and pivotal end time requirement, of the Isa 58|Matt 25:31-46|WM 23-62ff|DA 825.4|LDE 218.3-219.3-4ff mandate to True Remnant Christians. See Ivor Myers expound on this in his sermon at 29:44-32:46 & 41:42-42:43. Whenever I myself would bring up this pivotal issue to Tierney, (see in our discussions at e.g. Page 45 and search the document for any mention of the Bible&SOP references cited above, esp. “Isa 58” & “Matt 25”), he would either not respond/engage them or brush it off as ‘not as important as what he was shown of “guided” to understand about end time event developments. So I therefore am sure that Tierney likewise does not see this matter also cited by Myers as being pivotal to end time events.
Now in regards to Ivor Myers himself, (who I have hands-down deemed the worst of SDA preachers given his patent unexegetical and wildly whimsical sermons), while I do commend him (and those other SDA preachers), for having come to a Spiritually mature point where they (finally) can more clearly see this incontrovertible Jesus Christ mandate in the Bible [as I myself have been explicitly/publicly proclaiming since at least April 2006], as with other SDAs, I am easily seeing here that there is still the trace of the ‘completely nullifying selfishness’ that EGW/SOP said would mar any doing of good works (see eg. LDE 219.2-3). I.e. he, like others, are not advocating the doing of such good works for the outright benevolent reason of helping those in need, but in order to get something beneficial out of it. In this case, Myers claims that ‘this would show the world that SDAs can do such things better than Catholics and so would offset the appeal that Catholics are getting from doing this.’ Other SDAs want to do such good works for similar selfish/self-benefit reason, even legalistically merely for checking that off their end-time requirements list so that Jesus then would no longer have a reason not to effectuate the Second Coming soon, in their lifetime.
The example of Jesus cannot be ignored. He (knowingly) healed thousands of people and most of them ended up not following him, and even turning against him when He wouldn’t fulfill their earthly desires of becoming King and establishing an Earthly Kingdom. (E.g. John 6:25-27). Yet He still sought, and provided for their good.
Myers sermon focuses on ‘not drinking the wine of Babylon’, which to him means ‘not becoming enraged and throwing out the baby with the bathwater’ by not doing the good things that either the socio-political “Left” or “Right” are actually doing, namely, respectively: “Good Works” and “Righteous/Moral Doctrines/Teachings”, but actually, and directly contrary to his own warning, he and other SDAs are on a path to end up, even continue to, ‘walk in lock-step with the beast’ by insisting on this selfish motivation and self-benefiting reward requirement for/in doing those Christlike Good Works...because that is just another side of the Capitalistic selfishness coin. Self-benefit/profit is what Capitalism is all about. And until SDAs fully trust in God and set out to do all that they actually can as a wealthy, well-organized and well-populated Global Church to help all those in need, which will all start by ridding themselves of all of the artificial and whimsical constraints of Capitalism, they will continue to be in the Mark of the Beast Camp, failing to actually follow after God and his Biblical Socialistic Order, and thus, being unSealed by God’s Full Sabbatical Truth (cf. LDE 218.3ff), will, from their tokenly-spurious good works healings/signs (=Rev 16:12-14) , just remain on their present path to, tacitly, disastrously fighting on this (Neo-)Babylonian “Angel of (False) Light deception” side (=2 Cor 11:14-15; GC 588.3a; Mar 190.2) in the Battle of H/Ar-magedon!! (Rev 16:15-16, 17:14). That is what ‘drinking, and being drunk, with the wine of Babylon is actually, i.e. Biblically/exegetically) all about!!!
Myers sermon focuses on ‘not drinking the wine of Babylon’, which to him means ‘not becoming enraged and throwing out the baby with the bathwater’ by not doing the good things that either the socio-political “Left” or “Right” are actually doing, namely, respectively: “Good Works” and “Righteous/Moral Doctrines/Teachings”, but actually, and directly contrary to his own warning, he and other SDAs are on a path to end up, even continue to, ‘walk in lock-step with the beast’ by insisting on this selfish motivation and self-benefiting reward requirement for/in doing those Christlike Good Works...because that is just another side of the Capitalistic selfishness coin. Self-benefit/profit is what Capitalism is all about. And until SDAs fully trust in God and set out to do all that they actually can as a wealthy, well-organized and well-populated Global Church to help all those in need, which will all start by ridding themselves of all of the artificial and whimsical constraints of Capitalism, they will continue to be in the Mark of the Beast Camp, failing to actually follow after God and his Biblical Socialistic Order, and thus, being unSealed by God’s Full Sabbatical Truth (cf. LDE 218.3ff), will, from their tokenly-spurious good works healings/signs (=Rev 16:12-14) , just remain on their present path to, tacitly, disastrously fighting on this (Neo-)Babylonian “Angel of (False) Light deception” side (=2 Cor 11:14-15; GC 588.3a; Mar 190.2) in the Battle of H/Ar-magedon!! (Rev 16:15-16, 17:14). That is what ‘drinking, and being drunk, with the wine of Babylon is actually, i.e. Biblically/exegetically) all about!!!
Other SDA “Prophets”
Just a cursory inquisition into the prophetic claims of, remainingly here, Ron Beaulieu and Ernie Knoll, similarly reveal to me that God actually has a secondary intent in the various dreams and visions given to them (=1SM 25.4), which I thus far do not have a valid (i.e., a Biblical, 1 Thess 5:19-22) reason to say that they were not from God.
Many have summarily dismissed Ernie Knoll’s claims (e.g., James Tierney) because they find his dreams to be somewhat ‘too fantasaically verbose’, as if being subjectively embellished. However I have seen both in the Bible and SOP, and also from related personal experience, that, as indeed most dreams, even prophetic ones, are from one’s preoccupating matters, God does indeed also use these same preoccupying matters to craft a prophetic revelation, as they then involve symbols, thoughts and imagery that the receiver him/her-self will readily understand and thus decipher. Some examples of this in the Bible are: Judges 7:13-15 where an Israelite had a dream of a loaf of bread over rolling the camp of the Midianites which conversely reflected/implicated the fact that the Midianites were then causing great harm to the physical sustenance of Israel (Judges 6:2-4); but that symbolism was thus readily understood to be indicative of God’s deliverance over the Midianites through Gideon. Gen 40: The Divine dreams interpreted by Joseph while in prison involved familiar symbols for those former workers in Pharaoh’s court. The book of Revelation is filled with symbolism and allusions to the Old, and even New, Testament, which the Bible student, if filled with the meaning of those Biblical backgrounds, will then be able to figure out what is meant in the prophecies of Revelation.
It is also a common occurrence in the Bible that God gives a dream/vision to a person, but the interpretation of that dream to another person. E.g., Daniel (Dan 2; 4); Joseph (Gen 40; 41). The same thing is seen in several of EGW’s direct, cryptic revelations. Indeed as seen with Daniel, when the symbolism used is foreign to the receiver, thus they have no interpretive reference point at all, that results in the dream not being readily, or at all, understood, until interpretive indicators are given. And as seen with those “SDA Prophets” here, such dual-application/meaning dreams and visions are given directly to them by God to fulfill a needed testing and/or corrective purpose with/in them. And as these “prophets” here have variously sought to pursue the wrong course which is causing them not to grasp God’s actual/accurate/full and ultimate meaning in those revelations, and they have instead tacked on their own misguided understandings, which I see to be the worst with James Tierney here, then I do see a need for exercising 1 Cor 12:11's distinct gifting of ‘distinguishing the Spirits’ here to indeed separate God’s actual message/interpretation from man’s added spurious understandings and resulting claims.
As James Tierney’s revelations were more pointed and direct, and publishedly less, I have dealt with them in more detail than I presently will with Beaulieu’s and Knoll’s. But by simply having read through several of their direct revelations, I can also see the, more spiritual, secondary implication/application of those dreams. Indeed just like Israel’s OT prophecies went from being pointed and literal, to symbolical and spiritual, when Ancient Israel failed to advance in God’s purpose, in the exact same modus operandi, the direct and pointed prophecies given to Tierney, Beaulieu and Knoll are to have a secondary symbolical and spiritual application for God’s Church (Triumphant) today, as the Church Militant has failed in its mandate. As shown throughout this blog, the same secondary implications have also come to be the case with the SOP’s pointed and direct prophecies concerning Final Events. (See e.g., here on Rev 10). It is the deeper and more spiritual fulfilment of these prophecies that are now in effect, but of course, one first needs to first understand and heed God’s Full Law/Sabbath to ever begin to see and understand this development (=2 Cor 3:4-17).
So summarily here, I’ll simply say that Beaulieu’s “prophetic” ministry, which started in ca. 1985, seemed to be in order to pointedly make SDA’s aware that the long-known Ezek 9 Great Shaking judgement was looming upon them; and Ernie Knoll’s ministry seemed to be in order to candidly test whether SDA’s are willing to make several behavorial/internal changes/conforming which they claimed to believe in to be vital to being ready for the end. But they manifestly just didn’t actually care to want to proactively do this.
Along these lines, James Tierney’s prophetic revelations appear to be more Theological, and that, in order to test whether SDA’s actually believe the Final Events scenario that they have long been claiming to believe in and are awaiting. But they have instead just proven to not be ready to face the various marginalization and opposition that the needed stance they should be externally making against those who are decidedly against God’s Truth. And as SDA are also standing indifferently here, even against mere preachers who are bringing similar messages directly from the Scriptures, they are just proving, as they also did in regards to David Gates’ testing “Lazarus Experience” testimony to them, that: ‘they do not intend to heed either the Law nor the Prophets.’ And so God will certainly not give them the grand “signs” (e.g., Super-Natural Disasters and Sunday Law (cf. this post)) that they are basely looking for in order to decide to ‘get ready and get to work for the end.’
But of course, like the first century Jews, they pridefully won’t accept that God would “test” them in such a, especially demonstrably bantam, way.
The Ministry & Revelations of Ernie Knoll in Greater Detail (See his public (Summer 2012) presentation here and here)
Given a chain of recent spiritual circumstances and developments, I have (since ca. June 16, 2012) been constrained to set aside some [prime-]time to examine the ministry and prophecies of Ernie Knoll in more detail. Thus far, i.e., at the writing of the beginning of this dedicated analyzing section, having read and variously analysed his first 27 [and presently 45+] dreams (see his listing starting here) I have read enough to make the following introductory observational comments on these so far, pointedly in how I am seeing this pointed and distinct ‘prophetic ministry’ office, which, as mentioned at the beginning of this blog post, is by my reckoning, currently one of four concurrent distinct prophetic ministries, (which in itself is not at all an impossibility in “Israel” history for God’s people can not ‘only have one prophet at a time’.), which have a pointed relation to the SDA Church. In fact it effectively/technically is ‘5 current concurrent, applicable (express) prophetic ministries if the ministry and message of EGW is duly reckoned here as all of those four prophetic offices make ample reference to various pertinent aspect of her preceding “umbrella” ministry. And 6th concurrent “prophetic ministry” can also duly be also reckoned here when the correctedly, rightly understood, God-led and sustained message and ministry efforts of David Gates are also taken into consideration here, as his most Biblical, in itself, rallying call to engage in faith-based more comprehensive Gospel Ministry work is surely still in actionable effect today. [As discussed in this dedicated post, the variously unbiblical means by which he sought to convey that Godly message, were, as with Moses’ striking of the rock-to-be-merely-spoken-to, is what was not Biblical with him.]. And it can thus be seen and understood that by the fact that God has, quasi-silently, quite evidently now raised up to 5[+EGW] prophetic ministries to the SDA Church, which all can be properly appreciated when the 1 Thess 5:19-22 counsel is applied, that something quite pivotal and significant is soon to take place with, at the very least, the SDA Church itself, which I clearly see to be its, EGW long-prophesied, most drastic Ezek 9 (see here and here) Shaking event which is to fully transpire in advance of any actual “Final Event”, and is most likely to result, as discussed here from the SOP, in, at the very least, a most radical wholesale “changing of the guard” in/with the present SDA Church (Militant) in order to begin the tangible setting up of the Church Triumphant.
Interestingly enough, those current 4 prophetic ministries actually are each distinctly reformatorily fulfilling, (or, at least, should, [if they had been properly heeded], be/have been fulfilling), one of the above discussed 4 Faces of the Four Living Creatures which have a relation to the 4 Angels for the Four Winds. This is pointedly and namely:
Man (more SDA Socio-cultural Reforms) = Ernie Knoll’s Prophetic Ministry
Ox/Cherub (more Religious Reform) = Ron Beaulieu’s Prophetic Ministry
Eagle (Obtainable, Striking Latter Rain-like [Supernatural] Power/Signs) = James Tierney’s Prophetic Ministry
Lion (Geo-Missional Re-organization/structuring/focusing) = David Gates’s “Prophetic” Ministry
And I’ll, actually quite objectively, matter-of-factly state here that my NJK Project, also prophetic ministry, wholly encompasses the end goal of all of those above four prophetic ministries, indeed by setting up the facility in which those reform efforts will most facilitatively and supportingly be achievable and maintained. (You can think of it as ‘one angel & 4 other angels’ as prophetically, most pertinently/applicably depicted in Rev 7:1-3).
For now, in regards to the message and ministry of Ernie Knoll, I first now make statements on some key things I have observed from his dreams thus far. Perhaps later I’ll discuss each vision in necessary spiritual explanatory/analytical detail in the near future. So here are my observations thus far [Specific references to elements in Ernie Knoll’s dreams are given in the following type of format {#4-2} with the “#4” part being the Dream # as they are enumerated by him on his website and the “-2” portion being a specific paragraph counting based on the spacing delineation in his texts]:
Ernie Knoll's Momentary Fall
First of all, dealing with the “elephant in the room”, the whole well known “Candace” and ensuing “Great Commission Council” affair of Ernie Knoll has quite evidently been a “final nail in the coffin” for those who were actually wanting to find a reason to dismiss his dreams entirely. In a certain way, that is quite understandable given the whole, actual, “unforced error” of the whole saga as he began by entirely making up both of those “supporting testimonies” (see an archive of those writings here). However I can see how, after he had entered on that self-manufactured solacing path that he could easily have been led, by the now controlling Devil who, as with anyone who somewhat deliberately/boldly engages in a path of sin, to think that this was all God’s will, and so continued to enter more deeply in this wayward course. (You can see a well explained statement relating of this wayward episode in here [PDF] (pp. 405-418 [PDF pp.414-427])).[16] (See also my other commenting starting here.) That would indeed answer the rightly posed question/observation by manifestly many as to why, if Knoll has since admitted that the Candace person and testimony was entirely fabricated by him, why he would also be later saying that Satan had contributed to this waywardness. And most interesting to me, in his first dream after he had written out and self-emailed the “Candace conversion testimony” in November 2007, thus in his #26 December 8, 2007 dream, Knoll remarks that ‘it had been quite a while since he had received a dream’ {#26-1} (with the last one then having been on October 25, 2007 (#25), and interestingly enough was, ala. Luke 22:31-32, an intimated warning to him that, indeed in a “Great Controversy” context, ‘Satan and his evil angels were intending to most vitally attack him. And so this manifestly all transpired soon after that with the depression of his that shortly followed where he lost faith and lyingly (as Peter also did) engage in making up the supporting Candace testimony to try to, (also as with Peter oathmaking/swearing), once and for all, silence his critics.).
First of all, dealing with the “elephant in the room”, the whole well known “Candace” and ensuing “Great Commission Council” affair of Ernie Knoll has quite evidently been a “final nail in the coffin” for those who were actually wanting to find a reason to dismiss his dreams entirely. In a certain way, that is quite understandable given the whole, actual, “unforced error” of the whole saga as he began by entirely making up both of those “supporting testimonies” (see an archive of those writings here). However I can see how, after he had entered on that self-manufactured solacing path that he could easily have been led, by the now controlling Devil who, as with anyone who somewhat deliberately/boldly engages in a path of sin, to think that this was all God’s will, and so continued to enter more deeply in this wayward course. (You can see a well explained statement relating of this wayward episode in here [PDF] (pp. 405-418 [PDF pp.414-427])).[16] (See also my other commenting starting here.) That would indeed answer the rightly posed question/observation by manifestly many as to why, if Knoll has since admitted that the Candace person and testimony was entirely fabricated by him, why he would also be later saying that Satan had contributed to this waywardness. And most interesting to me, in his first dream after he had written out and self-emailed the “Candace conversion testimony” in November 2007, thus in his #26 December 8, 2007 dream, Knoll remarks that ‘it had been quite a while since he had received a dream’ {#26-1} (with the last one then having been on October 25, 2007 (#25), and interestingly enough was, ala. Luke 22:31-32, an intimated warning to him that, indeed in a “Great Controversy” context, ‘Satan and his evil angels were intending to most vitally attack him. And so this manifestly all transpired soon after that with the depression of his that shortly followed where he lost faith and lyingly (as Peter also did) engage in making up the supporting Candace testimony to try to, (also as with Peter oathmaking/swearing), once and for all, silence his critics.).
Also most significant in regards to this Candace affair, Knoll states in the #26 Dream that he asked the “Herald” angel ‘if he was the one that spoke to the lady named Candace.’ Some may here moronically/knee-jerkedly state here that this is proof that Knoll’s dreams are false and were made up, since he is still referring to Candace in his dreams who was a purely manufactured person, however that actually speaks loudly to the veracity of his dreams, i.e., that he is not making them up, and also to the fact that he was actually quite convinced that the Candace episode, even if initially fabricated, was according to God’s will. And, as in a (deep-sleep) dream, one is not a liberty to lucidly manipulate its developments, God may here have been testingly involving Knoll self-conviction about Candace. So it quite evidently is a truthful fact that he did ask that “Candace question” in that ensuing dream #26, and even in a still believing/deceived state. So this indeed shows that both his dream and his belief about Candace were both genuine. In fact, Knoll initial entire dismissal in a 07-17-2009 email (see here) of all of his prior dreams as “the work of the Devil” when he was confronted with the Candace lie in the week of July 15, 2009, speaks to the fact that God had probably, as with Saul and the Witch of Endor, permitted Satan to supernaturally make it seem that the Candace affair was His will, and that, all to precipitate this affair gone wrong and naturalistically bring it to its fully developed and consequential head as soon as possible.
And the angels terse and non-correcting “no” answer, who knew as a fact that Candace was nothing real, reveals that God was indeed testing Knoll here, just as, as literally every sinner can recall, starting with Adam and Eve, God does not send a contingent of angels to stop someone who wants to engage in a sinful course, nor does he actually send an angelic message after that to correct that sinful/sinning person but either lets them reap some or all of the consequences of that sin and/or in certain major cases, which are actually cases where God is keyly depending on the potential/possible contributions of that fallen person (when they are not acting sinfully), as in David case, sends another “prophetic” voice to pointedly redress/correct/remonstrate that person. [Postscript: as I have just read* in this comment, this is all evidently along the reason(s) why God did not explicitly correct Ernie Knoll on this deliberate waywardness. *(As I stated in the beginning of this post’s section on Knoll, I am still gradually reading/catching up on this case, and there has indeed been much “ink’ expend on it so far in SDA circles.)]
So Ernie Knoll manifestly learned his lesson in this whole “purposely permitted”, purifying saga. And with that key issue addressed, the contributions from the rest/genuine testimony of, what I see as being his Biblical prophetic ministry, can be examined.
Popular Claim of Dream Self-Inducement and/or Fabrication
A second Major introductory issue that necessitates being addressed is from the popularly common claim by (SDA) people who reject Ernie Knoll’s prophetic dreams by saying that they are either self-induced from Knoll’s own various thinking and/or the are outrightly fabricated by him. (See e.g., in the forum discussion linked to at the very end of this section on Knoll) First of all, from what I’ve read, Knoll has admitted that he, at least when he began to receive his dreams, did not the most/best knowledge of the Bible and SOP, and while, as seen here, his dreams contain many Scriptural and SOP allusions which Knoll highlights with textual reference endnotes, but my own personal, recurring reaction when I read those notes is, (and this is probably basely and surfacely similar to that of the detractors of Knoll): “no kidding, of course that is the pertinent Bible or SOP reference”. However, from my own personal and Biblical Research experience in having, studying and/or interpreting Divine revelations, I have seen the consistent modus operandi of God of making much more veiled and “restated” allusions to a prior corpus of Revelation. E.g., In the Bible, the OT classical and apocalyptic prophecies mainly made references to what God had explicitly revealed in the Law. In the NT, Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, added His own original revelations to what OT prophets such as Daniel had written. Then in the apocalyptic prophecy given to John the Revelator, he made prior references to literal any parts of what was fully considered as “Scripture” the (i.e., what we call the NT and OT today). Indeed, as most Bible student know, the book of Revelation is literally a collection of passages, imagery and statements found in the rest of the Bible. Then in EGW’s prophecies, it is seen that the prophecies of Revelation are expanded upon, as well, pointedly, other prophecies in the rest of the Bible. And, as seen in this present blog post, it is seen that modern genuine prophesying also makes many allusions to all of those past corpus of prophecies (i.e., SOP, NT, OT). But what is common with most of these new corpuses of prophecies, particular in recent ones starting with the SOP, perhaps even with John the Revelator, is that many of those ‘antecedent Biblical allusions’ are almost entirely missed, and only the most obvious and explicit ones are seen. I also see this occurring quite frequently with Ernie Knoll. The way I study his dreams is according to the way I have been studying in more depth the prophecies of the SOP (see e.g., here) and also Revelation (e.g., here and here) and the rest of the Bible (e.g., here) is to apply whatever element of exegesis is needed to properly understand them, from context, original language, manuscripts, history, scriptural passage cross-references, etc. In the case of the SOP, that mainly is in regards to studying out the context of quoted scripture as well as alluded to Biblical imagery, episodes and passages. I have been doing the same wherever I see that it is applicable with the imagery, passages and symbolism found in Knoll writings, which quite sequiturly enough, mostly make direct references and allusions in whole or in pointed parts to its immediate prophetic predecessor: the prophetic writings of EGW. A sample of my studying method of Knoll’s dreams is seen in the section just a little below on ‘the identity of his Herald” angel’. A larger section, indeed a typical dream, includes such [inline notations] with also references to the Bible and SOP. But the thing here with my studying of Knoll’s dreams is that, much more than my earlier stated “obvious” reactions, are my dumbfounded reactions of: “how did he miss this or that clear/obvious allusion”. Indeed when those non-Knoll-highlighted allusions and references are fully studied out in the Bible and/or SOP, they add so much deeper and fuller understanding to Knoll’s dreams. However it must be stated that these are usually along the lines of God “secondary” plan in regards to eschatological events should/if/when the SDA Church fail its Shaking Testing, especially if that is catastrophically so, where there are no members who actually pass that test (=Ezek 9:8; 11:13). And that is probably Knoll and most, if not all, others have missed those deeper and fuller meanings in those concealedly veiled allusions and references.[17]
So all of those “quasi-no-brainer/obvious misses” by Knoll, is a proof to me in themselves that Knoll is neither fabricating his dreams, nor that the dreams are personally induced/influenced by him, for he would then be doing quite a poor job of properly presenting them in either its primary (historical-consuming) or secondary (prolonged-time eschatology initiating) application(s). Of course one would need to first know/have and properly understand that ‘prolonged-time eschatological’ perspective to readily and properly understand the import of those veiled inclusions, but they can actually be found from simply the surface look into Knoll’s dreams for anything that is in anyway allusive/related to something that was said in the Bible and SOP, way beyond the explicit level which Knoll is himself merely seeing. (And a prophet himself not properly or fully understanding a revelation that was given to him is a recurring instance in the Bible and SOP, and hence, as Paul stated in 1 Cor 12:10, the need for the gift of interpretation. Indeed as the SOP states in 1SM 25.4 on this issue of interpreting/understanding prophecy:
“As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.”
So, contrary to quite popular opinion, I have seen that Ernie Knoll is instead showing much more various key objective signs of ‘no-control over his dreams’ which is peripheral proof to me, stemming actually from substantive examination (cf. here), that he is not in any way manipulating his dreams and prophecy claims.
Contemporized Prophetic Symbolism
That all said, another key, albeit here succinct, introductory point that must be made here in order to best grasp the meaning and significance of Knoll’s dreams is that, as similarly seen in many of EGW’s dreams and vision, they are a contextually contemporized presentation of old prophetic themes in the Bible and SOP. So, e.g., while God showed horse-drawn chariots and horses to Zecheriah (Zech 6:1-8; cf. 1:7-11, 12-17) and John (Rev 6 & 7:1-8:1) in Biblical times, a (also) horse-drawn, and slightly more advanced, wagon was shown to EGW (16MR 171.1-172.2), but [horse-powered] cars are instead shown to Ernie Knoll (Dream #15 - Keep Going [=Rev 6:17] & Dream #22 - The Two Cars [=Rev 7:1-8:1]), however the content of the dreams/visions themselves are thematically the same, and actually build on prior revelations, particularly as they now include present day developments to that foundational, specific prophetic plan of God. So it is also very important to recognize this “symbolism contemporizing” by God in Knoll’s dreams, which actually serve to necessarily veil those dreams, in order to get their fullest meaning.
“I Am Coming Soon”
-In {#3-29} Knoll relates Jesus as deliberately, simply saying: “I am coming” and not “I am coming soon” because Jesus says that “this time has past. Saying "I am coming soon" is like saying, some time down the road. We are at the end of the road.” As opportunistic and self-serving/rationalizing as it may knee-jerkly seem to some, but actually indeed to my overall generally understood Pre-SDA Church Shaking, Ezek 14:1-5, 7-8, “heart-testing/trying purposes” of God in sending those 4 SDA Prophets to the Church today, the “coming” that is being mentioned there by Jesus actually can Biblically have a most truthful “double-entente”...depending on how those to who that message is speaking to react to it. In other words it can be speaking of the Second Coming which can occur very soon if SDA’s conform themselves in indeed that final hours of their probation (cf. Knoll’s June 25, 2011 “Hourglass” Dream #55). And Jesus has “testingly” allowed SDA’s to believe that this is the only understanding here in order to see how they will react to “supposed to be” confirming testimony. But that has actually not brought about the zealous fruit that it should have, even, as it should have in complete independence of Knoll’s Dream here, solely based on the common mantra claims in the SDA Church that they believe that the end is very near. However in the also possible, Christ’s “coming”, can instead, as depicted in Rev 6:17, and involved in an SOP vision (EW 15.2 - see discussion on this in this post) be in judgement on those professed advent believers, and thus would be the key and necessary “pre-Advent”, ‘sons of Levi purifying’ judgement and reform coming of Christ to his Temple (=Malachi 3). And, most succinctly said here, this in indeed in full harmony with the pre-Advent Sealing and Shaking development that is to take place in the SDA Church, even before the 144,000 are fully seal (with merely 12,000 symbolic members actually coming from the SDA Church (=Judah) Rev 7:4a).
Jesus “the Great Adjudicator”
-Interestingly enough, Jesus is chiefly to be referred to/understood as “the Great Adjudicator” in Knoll’s dream (See {#16-6}; cf. {#36-51}) and as this title/office refers to ‘someone who is empowered to intermediatorily settle presides, judges and arbitrates a lesser formal dispute/issue in/towards a large/larger case’, (see here), then it is evident here that Jesus is actually now concerned with resolving a preliminary judgement issue prior to the more major one of the Second Coming and Final Events and that is the first-to-transpire, Close of Probation judgement issue with the SDA Church leading to its Shaking.
“The Herald” Angel
Response to this comment below:
"That is a surfacely interesting/plausible objection, however, as with any prophetic revelation of God, you have to look into it more carefully/spiritually in order to grasp the actual and full meaning here. I’ll briefly address this point here. First of all, as discussed in this blog post and also the present one, we can see that there are many other named angels in valid, in whole or in part Biblical (though Apocryphal) texts (which are works which to be carefully considered as per the SOP’s counsel). Secondly when that “Herald” angel first appears to Knoll (Dream #7) he is shown galloping on a white horse, which fully is a symbolism for one who is leading a righteous/Triumphant Church Militant Charge (cf. Rev 6:2). That angel makes several appearances in subsequent dreams without identifying himself, and it is not until Dream #16 when Knoll asks him his name that he tells him, and I see that it is actually a title and not a personal name, and is indicative of the commission of that Angel. [And as I am more and more understanding it, in the light of other related Bible and SOP statements (see e.g., in this blog post), particularly as the mandate of that Angels seems to focus on the Shaking of the SDA Church, it very well could be “The Sealing Angel” Gabriel himself* who prefers not to be readily identified here.] My following in-line notes [in square brackets] on Knoll dream may be helpful here:
I stop and ask the angel his name. He answers, "You can call me “The Herald” (he spelled it) [Something that precedes and indicates the approach of something or someone], but who I am is not important. The Great Adjudicator (he spelled this as well) [someone who presides, judges and arbitrates during a formal dispute] is the one name we should want to know and speak of." [Jesus is to come as one who will settle the judgement issue of the SDA Church; the Herald is simply announcing that event.] {Dream #16 paragraph 6}
The key to evaluating and understanding Knoll is to do a most substantive study and not merely peripheral ones, such as the name (or here, title) of an Angel, since they do each have a personal name."
* From Knoll’s Dream #29:
“I look up at him and ask, "May I ask you one question before you go?" He says, "You may ask." I tell him, "You told me to call you the Herald. Is your name Gabriel?" He smiles at me and says, "As I told you before, who I am is not important. The name of the One all should want to know is the Great Judge. That is the one name all should want to know and speak of."”
And Knoll’s statement in Dream #53:
“Upon this throne sits the Son of God, who is the Sun of Righteousness. On each side of Him are attending angels. A most noble angel, who I know to be Gabriel, lovingly places a crown of holy perfection upon the head of Jesus. He is crowning Jesus as the King of the Universe.”
is, simply said here, at the very least, merely an assumption by Knoll.
And, confirmingly from Dream #55, in a statement being made in the dream from a message of Jesus Himself to Knoll-rejecting SDAs, yet which is really still given in rather roundabout and merely equivocating terms:
“You claim that the Herald is of Satan, yet he is the angel who took Lucifer’s place. He
stands in honor after Myself and is the one chosen to open God’s purposes to mankind. He was the messenger to Old Testament prophets. He is the one who was sent to Daniel to reveal important prophecies. He announced the birth of John the Baptist. He announced My birth to Mary. He is the one who came to Me at the rock of Gethsemane. He gave the apocalypse to John the Revelator. He is the angel who says that his name is not important and that the name that should be on the lips of all is My name, Jesus. At every important moment, where a very special message is needed, our Father has sent the Herald. He has come to My messengers. The one you call evil is the one who should be called good. You have called Gabriel evil. I beg you to publicly admit that you have sinned against Me and My messengers. Please publicly confess your untruthfulness. Humble yourself before it is too late and repent before the door is closed. Please do not disappoint Me and stand as one whom I will destroy. Please stand with Me as I pour out the final judgment.”
Most significantly here, see my later understanding here for who exactly Knoll’s appearing “Herald” angel may actually be.
Physical Shaking-Surviving of SDA Church
See a comment on the precise/actual meaning and implication of this revelation to Knoll below here.
Inspiration of the book "Creeping Compromise"
-Some have balked at the fact that Joe Crews’ Creeping Compromise is so highly touted in Knoll’s dreams, with some claiming that this causes a slippery slope of considering certain books to be inspired and thus have prophetic authority. However, (a) if God is stating that a book should be read, then he probably did have something to do with the inspiration of its writing and that may be (b) simply by Him having pressingly led Crews to tackle that topic when, as Crews himself states at the beginning of his book (p. 2 - PDF) at that time (1977), there was actually no publication addressing these key issues in the SDA Church. In fact I see all this as quite similar to how God recently inspiredly-guided led Rick Howard to write his book against the increasingly “Creeping” issue of Spiritual Formation in the SDA Church.[18], [19] The content of the book itself may not have been verbatimly inspired, yet may most likely have severally involved some degree of thought/idea inspiration, which as also seen with EGW, still had to be documentedly researched to properly/fully present them. So I see nothing wrong with God bringing the attention of the Church back to a work on Christian Standards as discussed in Crews’ book, indeed especially given the lax attitude of the Church in many of these regards. (Cf. this comment). In fact, just perusing through Crews’ book, I find it quite “forward/deep-thinking” (i.e., still speaking to our day = ‘divinely/prophetically-inspired’) in the way he highlights the principles/reason as to why those standards are significant. And in a most interesting way, what Joe Crews had relatively cursorily/quasi-exhortationally started in comprehensive his 55-page treatise, several dedicated works of Samuele Bacchiocchi have helped to greatly advance by giving a deeper Biblical and Historical basis for this standards such as in regards to Dress &Adornment, Temperance, Marriage, [the Christian and the Law], Music[20] (you can access most of these books here.). Likely enough, it probably is those who have a problem with the standard that is being raised by those Christian Standard works (cf. e.g., here) who would try to find a quibbling excuse to reject that testimony of Knoll, and, self-suitingly-enough, even his entire prophetic claim/ministry.
Divine Purpose in Allowing Evil Angel Counsel
-It is triumphantly comical to see how the Devil is and had been repeatedly, effectively fooled by God into taking a seemingly most harmful action against God’s followers which eventually only working out for the greater good of them and/or others. Many examples can be cited here from the episode of Job, the “sifting” of the Disciples around Christ’s death, the bloody persecutions of Christians throughout the centuries, even the final all-out assault against Jesus Christ Himself at the Cross which proved to be the Devil greatest and cosmically final defeat in GC, i.e., in the eyes of the unfallen angels, etc. All of these triumphant wins by God is the, in here discussed and referenced, “Infinitively-Wise Chess Master (ICM)” I.e., God, at work. And it either is that the Devil candid had no idea that doing this all would be so costly to him in the end and/or he just does not care anymore, at least sin the defeat at the Cross, to lose, but merely to bring down as many people as he could through those actions. (~Rev 12:12). All this is prefacely stated here because of the way the whole Candace saga with Ernie Knoll actually, when Biblically evaluated, turned out to be a most stinging defeat of the Devil himself, and not Ernie Knoll as many have spiritually glibly and knee-jerkly, readily concluded.
At this point in my reading/research, I am still not sure if Knoll made up the Candace affair himself or if he was told to do so in a “private dream” (as opposed to his “public ones” which he publishes and posts online). Either way, given that it was to go way beyond a mere illustrative parable to pretending that this was a real person writing and posting those supposedly true testimonies, it was outrightly a lie, and thus not at all from God. In fact if, as in the 1 Kgs 22:19ff episode wanted to involve a “lying spirit” here, and that solely to cause the precipitated fall of those who would prefer to be rebellious to Him...and perhaps that was indeed his intention here), He would have defaultly allowed the Devil to do this through someone else. However it was perhaps because that permitted testing temptation took root in Ernie Knoll that this particular and purposeful “stumbling block” for SDA’s also spuriously substantively rebelling, and that for no valid Biblical reason, (for even a non-“Israelite” prophet such as Balaam, can be used by God to relate a most Biblical message), against the quite Biblical testimonies of Knoll, was done. Indeed as seen many times in Biblical History, God wanted to, as in the October 22, 1844 Great Disappointment, “shake away” spurious/fence-sitting professed “believers” in those messages, but who were not actually acting on them even when they saw that the messages were Biblical.
And here is where God managed to also turn all this, actually sinful saga into a good and great one at that: As seen in this recounting testimony, one of those private dreams, which Knoll is evidently now seeing as themselves all being from the Devil, Knoll was told the most unbiblical thing in being told to tell women to go without certain undergarment and wear clothes that were as tight and form revealing as possible. That is indeed contrary to God’s Dress Reform message, but as also exemplified within this instance, and as I have variously witnessed myself in various SDA Churches, to the point where I was wondering if I had walked into a brothel by accident with various women competitively trying to attract/advertise “business” by how they were immodestly dressed (cf. this commenting), the SDA Church is already, at the very least, tacitly, and that majoritarily so, following in quite mirroring ways,* that very evil testimony that the Devil counsel in that private dream. (As, “even more” “distracting”, with e.g., this relatable instance). So, and this is where the Devil fell into a trap from God in this whole saga, such testimonies from him in those private dreams only revealed his subtle snares and deceptions for the SDA Church. In fact, Ernie Knoll should now publish all of those private dreams which may ‘deceitfully” actually not all contain such evil counsels, so that the Devil’s snares as he freely revealed in those private dreams could be seen and guarded against. Interestingly enough, it seemed that, as with aspects of the GC, the Devil could only “misinform” Knoll on certain things through the sinful snare, I.e. the made up Candace character, which Knoll had knowingly adhered to.
So, as with Peter’s fall, God was able to use Knoll’s temptation and fall for a greater good. But for those who are only superficially interested in following the truth, i.e., only when it suits their fancy, this all turned out to be the stumbling block that it was meant to be, just like God (in fact Jesus Himself) permitting Jesus/Himself to be arrested and put to death was a stumbling block to similar spiritual “fools”. ‘Spiritual things are spiritually discerned’ and those of base and carnal (=”fleshly”) mind/disposition will indeed be the first to stumble at God’s various testings of them, something which is not maliciously done, but, as with Ernie Knoll himself, variously a precipitating actions so as to reveal their true self to themselves and hopefully help them to make the necessary changes (=1 Cor 5:5).
*Post Script [01-05-13] - That priorly said above, given my now even more fully understood modus operandi of God in the revelations to “His (professed) People” to/through Ernie Knoll, and precisely here, as discussed below, in regards to who exactly is this Herald Angel (namely a God-commandeered deceiving/lying Spirit), all in order that God may speak to SDAs exactly and fully according to their indifferent/wayward/“lukewarm” idolatrous ways, all fulfilling Ezek 14:1-8 (-See the application/fulfillement of the Ezek 14:9-11 prophetic principle/element pointedly/justly/duly in regards to Knoll in the discussion here+here [Reposted in Note #21[21] below]), then I am here seeing that Knoll was so convinced that this undergarment revelation was from God, that it was likely also presented by this Herald angel, but this was really all in reflection of/for, as discussed here, the popular/widespread way in which SDAs today have largely ignored, curtailed or abrogated the Biblical principles on Christian Dress and Adornment and actually do think and believe that if they dress more like the world, including looking more sexy, indeed as similarly involved in that Knoll revelation here, then they will thus be able to be a better witness of God to the world. (cf. 4bSG 18.3) So that experience of Knoll was actually probably valid...i.e., in the Ezek 14:1-8 sense for Lukewarm SDAs.
Most Stringent SDA Shaking Further Specific Revelation
-From similar/comparable personal experience, I can see that the rather predominant personal aspect of Ernie Knoll’s dream, as compared to EGW’s dreams which were of a more general nature, but not always, (or a more detailed comparison between those two may actually reveal a much more comparative level of personal vs. general revelation predominance/ frequency), is more than likely because, as Knoll’s dreams also closely involve the Shaking of the SDA Church, that God actually does not expect not many SDA’s, indeed similar to EGW’s ‘not 1 in 20’ revelation, to successfully make it through that stringent testing, indeed simply on the issues that they understand and profess to believe as being their testing truths. (See a discussion on this Knoll specification starting here).
The Infamous "Tithing (Storehouse)" Issue
-It is interesting that Knoll was largely rejected by the Church because of the Tithing revelation but, on top of that actually not being contrary to what the Bible or SOP teaches (see e.g., this debunking response), if that counsel was followed, it would result, as someone else pointed out, in ministries, mainline or supporting, which members are seeing are actually properly doing God’s work being better funded to help advance and expand their cause, and other ministries, even church ones, or local conferences/ churches which members are finding are not “feeding them properly” (=Ezek 34) either, justly drying up and “going out of business” or, if they choose to better themselves, regain the tithing/funding confidence of members. (That is all of course assuming that the members themselves are appreciative of Biblical messages.) And all of this is completely different than a Local Churches keeping all of their tithes, because members would have been free to tithe wherever they are seeing God’s truths being preached and upheld and His work being properly done. How many racially segregated conferences would continue to stand today under that more Biblical model where the members can thus readily do away with such unbiblical impositions. And, conversely involved, even Theocratic Israel was free, by God’s design, to “vote God out” if that is what they actually desired.
A “storehouse” can also involve a formal/official ministry of Church members for it technically is also a Church, indeed a Church as its should be: i.e., Outreaching, Ministering and Evangelizing. The belief that the “storehouse” should only be the local Church and in turn the Local Conference only serves to have no checks on unfaithful/irresponsible Conference leaders and/or Congregational/Local Pastors. (See the related study on ‘SDA Tithe Storehouse’ in this other blog).
The ‘KJV-only’ Testimony (e.g., {#24-4})
Along the line of what I stated had on this issue starting here, I see that the assumed King James Version-only revelation in Ernie Knoll’s “The ABC” dream is not actually saying ‘nothing but the readings of the KJV’, but rather that in the case when proper exegetical scrutiny results in an inconclusive determination as to what the accurate text and/or reading/translation of Bible passage is, the KJV should be given the benefit of the doubt. And really this is only applicable to manuscript issues, as it is quite possible to arrived at more/most accurate translations from the present state of Bible original languages studies. A perfect case in point for me here is, as discussed in this post, in her citing of John 20:17 in DA 790.2, EGW significantly and most explicitly improvingly deviates from the KJV reading.
‘God “knows”(??) the future’
In the Dream “Stand Fast” the Herald says/relates to Knoll that:
“We should not be discouraged but know that just as our Father knows the beginning, He also knows the end.” {#28-4}.
While such a statement would seems to contradict my view on ‘God and the Future’ discussed here, where it is Biblically seen that ‘the future is not known, but planned by God’ and actually does not even exist, there are two key points here which show that those two views are actually/really/ultimately not contradictory.
1. God does know how He will “end” things. Meaning that ‘He knows those all-wise and counselled plans (=Isa 46:9-11) which He has set through which this GC will be wrapped up’. So to that extent, as an All Mighty and Sovereign God, He “knows” how He will bring about this conclusion, even if He is forced to then used supernatural and sovereign force to accomplish this end.
2. While Isa 46:10 actually says and pointedly means “declare” (even in the KJV) and not “knows”, the use of the commonly repeated “knows” here instead of the actually accurate “declares” reading is manifestly all according to the SDA-testing purposes of the revelations made to Knoll. I.e., SDA (albeit, factually and theologically wrongly) believe that Isa 46:10 says “knows”, and as stated in my discussion on this Theological issue here it is quite evident that God has deliberate (for merciful wider-salvation purposes) chosen to not Himself correct this understanding amongst Believers, including SDAs (including EGW: e.g., CH 375.2; MB 100.1; PP 43.1). So here He would just be uninterruptingly continuing along this purposeful and testing line of operation with SDAs.
Just as with EGW infamous “Astronomy Vision” (discussed e.g., here) which is now seen was merely meant to impress and convict Sea Captain Joseph Bates, and thus only related the common knowledge of the time then in regards to the number of moons that certain planets had, and not the actual, later discovered number, it is similarly not surprising to see here that in a vision which is primarily meant to test the common professions of SDAs, the precise “declares/plans” Theological Truth about God and the Future was not revealed then, but the historically understood ‘knows/exists’ one was continued to be used instead.
Ernie Knoll's (latest) “Final Events” Dream (#64 - Dec. 12, 2012)
As usual, I found this latest dream of Knoll,[22] substantively insightful, and quite spiritually corroborating to my own light, and thus, through the imposed and inherently involved “Biblical Testing” for those conclusions, prophetically valid,[23] -however only more than less in this case. That is because I have a couple of unresolvable issues with a couple of statements which were made in it. As seen in my commenting above on certain parts of Knoll’s dreams, I do come across several statements in Knoll dreams, which I believe to be from God, which would seem to be in contradiction to my own light. However I have been able to Biblically reconcile the two given the Biblically attested fact that God many times relates to His people merely according to their level of understandings, even if not accurate, for it is up to them, especially when withing their power and feasibility, to more deeply search and study the Scripture to find those already revealed Truths. (=Ezek 14:1-7). That was repeatedly variously done by Jesus (e.g., Matt 15:21-28|DA 400.2ff (see this sermon)), and those times revealed that He was acting out a critical test. So I am also understanding those occurring “non-Biblical” instances in Knoll’s dream as similar “Divine testing instances” actually mixed in as deliberate, “specious” stumbling block by God in order to fulfill His, as the Light given to me is, overall “hardening-in-order-to-destroy” typological judging purposes upon the SDA Church (=Isa 6:8-13|Matt 13:10-17).
As usual, I found this latest dream of Knoll,[22] substantively insightful, and quite spiritually corroborating to my own light, and thus, through the imposed and inherently involved “Biblical Testing” for those conclusions, prophetically valid,[23] -however only more than less in this case. That is because I have a couple of unresolvable issues with a couple of statements which were made in it. As seen in my commenting above on certain parts of Knoll’s dreams, I do come across several statements in Knoll dreams, which I believe to be from God, which would seem to be in contradiction to my own light. However I have been able to Biblically reconcile the two given the Biblically attested fact that God many times relates to His people merely according to their level of understandings, even if not accurate, for it is up to them, especially when withing their power and feasibility, to more deeply search and study the Scripture to find those already revealed Truths. (=Ezek 14:1-7). That was repeatedly variously done by Jesus (e.g., Matt 15:21-28|DA 400.2ff (see this sermon)), and those times revealed that He was acting out a critical test. So I am also understanding those occurring “non-Biblical” instances in Knoll’s dream as similar “Divine testing instances” actually mixed in as deliberate, “specious” stumbling block by God in order to fulfill His, as the Light given to me is, overall “hardening-in-order-to-destroy” typological judging purposes upon the SDA Church (=Isa 6:8-13|Matt 13:10-17).
That understanding does indeed best explain those two head-scratching statements in that Dream of Knoll that:
(1) God was actually against the ‘Ordination of Women as Pastors/Leaders’ which is presently being studied out by the General Conference, for as Biblically presented in here, there is much Biblical support showing that God no longer (needs to) make/s this leadership gender distinction in the New Covenant. Perfect example, the inherently ordained leadership and ministry of Ellen White.
Related to that claim of Knoll is the statement that accepting Women Ordination will lead the SDA Church to fully/indiscriminately also endorse homosexuality. I knee-jerkly found that odd given the recent statement from the SDA Church which did not necessarily waver from its prior stance against homosexuality, however as that newest statement was done to involve “compassion”, which can subjectively be/become ambivalently ambiguous, if their similar “compassionate” switch in regards to “elective-allowances” for abortions is any indication, it can lead to a more wider acceptance of also that unbiblical/abominable practice. However that declaration does not mean that they can’t change their view later. So, believing that this is actually what Knoll had actually seen/heard in from his “Herald” Angel (=‘Gabriel’), (indeed I think that Knoll has well, and fearfully so, learned his lesson about fabricating prophetic claims), I am understanding this, thus genuine Divine development, as God both testing and warning the SDA Church. I.e., “testing” with the hopeful result that they will most diligently do their Bible studying on the Women Ordination issue, and also warning them of not thinking, as several sermons and many statements during the already occurred Union Conference Constituency meetings showed, that the Woman Ordination issue is a matter of ‘evolving culture’ for it certainly is not. God’s truth does indeed supercede any cultural development. If that is not understood, then it can easily be seen how one day homosexuality will, out of a similar “advanced times/culture” basis, also be endorsed by the Church then.
(2) The Second head-scratching statement, which were surfacely seemingly so offensive and bigoted that they initially led me to misread, misconstrue, and misunderstand them was in regards to the joint claims that: (a) the black race/skin color had/has something to do with sin/character, and (b) that it was Black People/Africans who had been cursed in the “Ham” Curse of Gen 10:24-27. In a prior discussion I had on that issue, against, mainly an SDA who had (or still has) that view, (see starting here, and resumed in several subsequent posts in that thread; -See a later debunking of that insidious claim from SOP statements (SW 35.1, 43.1; TSA 85.3-4) posted in response by some else (APL) when it was indifferently, “double-downly”, restated a couple of years later here), I had debunked both of those claims, which had been expressed as such, as not at all being either Biblical, or even scientific in regards to the origin/cause of skin colors. So it was with that insulting background in mind that I reactionarily/knee-jerkedly construed the statements in Knoll’s Dream and defaultly classified them as being of that same, frankly bigoted, mindset. So that led me to really see no possible/reconciliable, entirely Godly, light in that prophetic claim of Knoll and thus concluded that his Herald angel must, at the very least, only a God-commandeered lying/deceiving spirit, in order to fulfill God’s Ezek 14:1-8 actions against SDAs who indeed worshipfully have and heed various unbiblical views. (cf. 1 Kgs 22:19ff; 2 Thess 2:11-12). However, in the course of an email discussion about this issue with Ernie Ralph Bennett, (who, as mentioned later said he first received several of Ernie Knoll's dreams, but as visions, in the late 1980's, and also encountered and engaged an Angel who, similarly reluctantly and circuitously led him to assume, when pressed, that he was the Angel Gabriel), I came to notice a most significant/pivotal detail in Knoll’s claim which not only agrees 100% with what the Bible says, but came to more accurately clarify this issue here for me. And that was the detail that the Bible actually says that it was the descendants of Ham who had been cursed, and not (merely) Ham himself. And Knoll actually had similarly related this in his dream when he said the Herald said:
“They [white conference leaders] fear being called culturally insensitive or racist. Sadly, the black race has shown racial hypersensitivity since God pronounced a curse on the descendants of Ham.”
Summarizing my emails commenting with Bennett here on, first, pointedly, the “descendants” implication, which vindicates God, the Fifth Commandment shows that God did not at all tolerate a child dishonoring their parent(s) and the penalty was effectively dispossession and/or a shortening of life (Exod 20:12), even immediate death (e.g. Exod 21:17|Lev 20:9). So Ham (and also his posterity) should really have been immediately put to death for so grossly dishonoring his father (and thus he would not have any (more) descendants at all), but instead God let him live, and so the other penalty of enslavement applied here; as it would later be the options in Deu 20:10-18. So God was being both fair and consistent according to His Eternally-existing Law. Indeed, the last thing that God needed/wanted, especially right after the flood judgement, which Ham had witnessed in person, was a new unrighteous posterity/people. But as the SOP also suggests (see PP 117.2), Canaan himself had evil characteristics and may indeed have personally revelled in this dishonoring of his grandfather, and thus did deserve that cursing.
Also, it was pointed out to me that indeed all of Ham’s 4 sons, and not only Canaan, were cursed. And Canaan was actually doubly cursed where he would be the ‘slaves of his slave brothers’ (Gen 9:25). That led me to come to an observation that it may be that only Canaan had yet been born when that incident with Noah had occurred. (See Gen 9:18-19). (However Gen 9:20-22 obviously did not occur at the very first, nor first few, harvest season(s) after the Flood as Canaan then would have been as young as 2 years old, -and thus, at the very least, (understood to) still be in his age of innocence.) So that would technically explain why Canaan was mentioned by name in the curse, but, as the SOP light shows, if/since he personally had developed a vile character which was manifestly openly manifested at that “opportunity”, God saw fit to pre-emptively double his curse. And my wider view here is that the other sons of Ham, namely Cush, Mizraim, and Put (Gen 10:6) were actually not born yet, but had still been already inherently (simply) cursed by being the descendants of Ham. (And Canaan may actually be cited last in Gen 10:6 not because he would be the youngest, but simply because of that double curse).
Now during that emailing discussion, I also found an interesting statement in the writings of Josephus who says:
“And when Noah was made sensible of what had been done, he prayed for prosperity to his other sons; but for Ham, he did not curse him by reason of his nearness in blood, but cursed his prosperity. And when the rest of them escaped that curse, God inflicted it on the children of Canaan. But as to these matters, we shall speak more hereafter.” (Antiquities 1:6.3 #142)
First of all, the italicized statement is an interesting viewpoint as to why Ham himself was not cursed, and may have a Biblical (Jewish Law) basis, but I still see that God only had to curse the posterity of Ham in order to affect him as he then would not become a great people as his other brothers. Now it is interesting that Josephus claims that the descendants of the other three sons of Ham “escaped” their curse. Indeed it very well may be that God did not inflict the curse on these other 3 sons of Ham, (who again I see were not even born yet), because they, nor their descendants, did not, relatively, live evil/as evil lives as did Canaan and his descendants, who were the various “-ites” people groups (Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, etc -Gen 15:19) and indeed some of the most wicked people on Earth then (cf. Gen 15:16b). And as God does clearly say that ‘if people change their evil ways then He too will change His mind on something detrimental, harmful and/or fatal that He had priorly pronounced on them.’ (Jer 18:7-8; Ezek 18:21-23, 27-28; 33:11; -with: Ezek 18:10-13 (applies to Canaan and his descendants) & Ezek 18:14-19 (applies to 3 other sons/descendant of Ham)), He may indeed have sparingly done this for the other three sons of Ham, (in relative comparison to the more evil ways of the descendants of Canaan), who went on to form the following people groups[24] as stated in Gen 10:1-20 and more detailedly expounded upon in Josephus’ writings. (Antiquities 1.6.2-3 #130-#142). And according to Gen 10:19, the perverted peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah manifestly were also descendants of Canaan.
So all this to say that when Knoll’s statement seemed to be linking black people with the curse of the descendants of Ham, it actually was not doing so, but merely, manifestly playing upon a commonly held view in America, and also amongst American SDAs, that the curse of Ham’s descendants had something to do with Black People and thus was also was a justification for slavery. All of which would actually explain why American, especially adult/aged SDAs priorly and mostly still do see a “religious” basis for their past segregation of black and white races in the Church. Interestingly/Sadly enough, due to the systemic indifferently paramount, poor and deficient exegesis in the SDA Church, and with neither white or black leaders who adhere to these racial divisions not even wanting to seek out what the Biblical teaching really is on this issue, it would not be surprising at all that Black SDAs actually do believe that the curse of Ham does apply to their race, as implied in the “hypersensitive” statement in Knoll’s dream. And do notice how those issues of ‘racial issues in even non-segregated conferences’ and the “curse of Ham” are joined in that Knoll statement.
Another touchy (to me) statement in Knoll’s dream was him relating, actually quoting from the SOP, (which in my initial, blinding offense, I completely did not realize):
“In heaven there will be no color line; for all will be as white as Christ himself. Let us thank God that we can be members of the royal family.” {The Gospel Herald, March 1, 1901}
Knoll also had also just related that:
“The Herald says to know that in heaven there is no race. Heavenly angels find it a disgrace that some painters depict them in different colors, as if angels had races. In order to be politically correct, these artists lower themselves to the standards of the world. However, God’s people must have a higher standard; they must be a peculiar people.
Some may jointly construe these statements as some sort of Biblical validated “(white) race superiority” support, and also that other shades of skin color are therefore reflective of one’s sinful character. But that is not at all the case. My own view on skincolors had been that originally all peoples were of a tan color as with Middle Eastern people today, but upon further pondering on the pertinent and implicated points, it is scientifically manifest that a tan skin color is clearly caused by Ultraviolet radiation upon man. With the understanding that such mild tanning effect from the sun came as a result of the water canopy that God had placed in the atmosphere at Creation (Gen 1:6-8) from all the waters which had been covering this unformed planet, being mostly returned back to Earth for the flood judgement, then I can see that it was only after the flood that the sun would have such a tanning effect upon people. I do not see/think that it would be God’s ideal that the sun so affect people’s skin color, i.e., darken their skin color when they are merely passingly exposed to it. So I can see that a white skin color was what Adam and Eve had. And thus, it was only after the Flood that people became darker (=tanned) in skin color when the UV rays of the sun could more strongly pass through the planet’s atmosphere. And it is only after the dispersion that occurred at the Tower of Babel when God thus caused people to migrate to the also post-Flood harsh and extreme (Tropical and Cold) climates that there came to be over time extremes spectrum shades of skin colors.
So it is actually only most indirectly that sin, as manifested by the time of the Flood and then Babel, has any relation to present skin colors, and that merely by having forced certain peoples, (i.e., from the descendants of the 3 Sons of Noah), to live in certain regions where Sun exposure and climate affected, either way, their skin color. And there certainly is no Biblical basis, as many, even SDAs, think, that one’s skin color is (directly) reflective of a sinful character. Nor also a belief that ‘evil angels are actually (now) black in skin color/reflection while unfallen angels are (still) pure white.’ First of all, in vision EGW was shown that angels had to present an identifying golden card when entering and leaving the Heavenly realm (EW 39.2), which implies that evil angels could very easily successfully pass as unfallen angels and fool angels guarding Heaven’s gates. (And this is all related to the fact that, as discussed here, there manifestly is a total thought privacy in Heaven, including from God towards unfallen angels/beings. So they need that manifestly genetically biometric, and probably lie-detecting id card to validate who they are. But more concretely, EGW saw Satan in vision and described his features before his fall and now, and how sin had caused certain changes to him, but never mentioned an affected, darker skin complexion. (EW 152.3) Sin does not cause light/dark skin color changes in God’s created beings.
So saying/showing that Jesus and Angels ‘are white’, is at the very least merely a figure of speech, but it can also be reflecting the fact that God had originally, indeed ‘race-lessly’, created all people with that skin color and it was only the detrimental effects of sin on the living conditions on this planet which came to alter things here.
So I do not see that this later claim in Knoll dream is, when accurately studied out, in contradiction to the Bible.
So if statements, from the Herald no less, are either not Biblical and/or so seemingly/facially in contradiction to the Bible, but really not, then why would God have any of them stated/related at all, even “as the Truth”. Again, I have other/general reasons to believe that Knoll’s experience is valid, i.e., a prophetic event/revelation from God indeed, so, though frankly quite tempting, I am, through diligent Biblical testing”, resisting basely/knee-jerkedly dismissing this as: ‘Knoll slyly inserting his own Biblical views and understandings in an (otherwise genuine) dream, and that all in order to influence the current GC Policy deliberations.’ Instead, I have quite valid Spiritual demonstrations, indeed as done by Jesus in Matt 15:21-28|DA 400.2, that God can make such unbiblical statements, in order to cause/force His professed people to do some candid soul searching. [The SOP says a similar thing in 5T 707.3: i.e, 'God will allow heresies to enter the Church to force Bible study'.]. Indeed if SDAs here reacted by saying that: “we don’t believe that” then, i.e., (1) why, in regards to Women Ordination, do so many, i.e./e.g., voting constituents, even prominent leaders, -who are moreoverly involved in this deliberation, trumpet an ‘advanced culture’ view as the paramount reason for making a change here; and (2) if they really don’t believe that there is anything God-ordained, Spiritual and/or Prophetic involved in races and skin color, then why do the still continue to so worshipfully have a shrine to the days of U.S. Slavery and Segregation in the Church?!! (See in here). In other words, if they actually balkingly say that they do not believe Knoll to be relating something that was inspired by God here, then why are they actually practising/believing those very same things, indeed for the same reasons-basis!?? God is through this testing and exposing the hypocritical stance of the Church here!!
That view then leads into the following key observation for me. Since, as already cited, God can, and has, communicated something prophetic to His people, in the light of their own cherished idols, but since certain of these things involve not actually being the (full) Truth, then, there here may be, through the Prophetic ministry of Ernie Knoll an, at least in some instances, effectuation of the 1 Kgs 22:19-23 summoning/permitting of a “lying/deceiving” spirit by God and all in order to lead the SDA Church to remain in its various and several ‘deceived, unrighteous ways’ and ‘believe their overmasteringly ensnaring lies’ (2 Thess 2:11-12|EW 266-269), in order to effectuate the ‘sheep which have no shepherd(s)’ destruction long-prophesied in the SOP (= 1 Kgs 22:17 - see this post). A Sovereign and Almighty God can, wrathfully, indeed easily have this done, and all in order to effectively ‘slow boil the frog’ here, i.e., so that SDAs most deservingly realize way too late the self-destructive path they have been on (=Isa 6:11-12; cf. Isa 28:5-13; Ezek 14:1-7). This Herald identification understanding is also combined with the, as documented earlier in this post, roundabout and equivocating ways in which this “Herald” angel has thus never actually squarely said that he was Gabriel. So at best, it may merely be a regular angel who has been ordained to function as Gabriel, to reflect the fact that it is Gabriel who would bring the Sealing message to SDAs (=Rev 7:1-3, see more in this post) Yet with that “Herald” angel typically coming and going in Knoll’s dream, there may at these instances be a switching of an angel of God and a commandeered lying/deceiving spirit/angel. But, as with my understandings on the Character of God, where I see that He himself first is involved in judgements on His people when He then aims to have mercy, but then, if they persist, entirely gives them up to Satan, then the Matt 15:21-28|DA 400.2 principle may be at work here where God is just echoing the various beliefs of SDAs, however unbiblical, back to them. If they had actually been Biblical, and Biblically testing Knoll’s revelations, then not only would such statements not have been made by God, but they would have come to beneficially find the true Biblical light on those “parroted” issues. So by themselves adhering to these unbiblical beliefs, and also not bothering to properly test Ernie Knoll’s prophetic claims as required in 1 Thess 5:19-22, then they are just doubly dooming themselves, even squandering the corresponding little (“lukewarm”) light that God has graciously allowed them to have.
This view of ‘a regular angel ordained to function as Gabriel’ and/or ‘a (at times) commandeered lying/deceiving spirit/angel’ understanding for the Herald/‘Gabriel’ in Knoll’s dream, (indeed the switch/veiling of the angel’s name from “Gabriel” to merely a generic title: “Herald”, would now be even more interesting/telling to me, indeed having been non-precedented (Dan 8:16; Luke 1:19), as it would/does actually perfectly harmonize with my arrived at views in regards to the (actual) whereabouts of the Third, Sealing Mighty Angel Gabriel (see this post). And so God would have here merely been using a “stand in”!! And with God being capable of stipulating what even a commandeered lying/deceiving angel can and cannot say (cf. 1 Kgs 22:22), then it is not impossible that the vast majority of what that Gabriel-imitating Herald angel, especially if or when an actual angel from God, has been saying was generally genuine Truths from God.
So all this to say that the Herald in Knoll’s dream is, at the very least, presently merely an angel ordained by God to function as the prophetically expected, (or at least: should have been expected), Gabriel, but there may also be involved the use of a deceiving spirit for purposes of allowing SDA to believe their cherished lies in order to accelerate/precipitate (“already”) their Shaking Judgement. (2 Thess 2:11).
[This Ernie Knoll section will continue to be gradually added to in convenient/necessary time.]
Some (joined) Online Discussion Forums where I discuss this Testing of Ernie Knoll:
Club Adventist: “So why do people fall for people like Ernie Knoll”
Our Sword: “False Prophet Ernie Knoll Admits He Was Lying” (Most of my prior commenting were deleted on that blog post, so see this PDF print copy of the original discussion. As stated therein, any subsequent statement made on that blog that I may wish to address will be done in this endnote[25])
Christian Forum: “Ernie Knoll not a prophet?”
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll -The Prophet of Emptiness
Topix (SDA) Forum - Why is God keeping Ernie Knoll so clueless about the real world?
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll is an Obvious Fraud (Part 1)
Topix (SDA) Forum - Ernie Knoll is an Obvious Fraud (Part 2)
Post Script:
Ernie Ralph Bennett’s Similar Visions
It could be beneficial to many to here relate that in my various online discussion on Ernie Knoll Prophetic Ministry, I have come across, and have been having email discussions[26] with a certain Ernie Ralph Bennett (username: “easyriderman” in this forum; “RoadDog” in this one; and (also) “Mister Anonymous” in this one), who, as he publicly stated here, says that for a short while starting in 1986 he had had several visions, [see e.g., here], particularly many which are similar to Ernie Knoll’s. He had prayed for the evident prophetic calling to be given to someone else, and ca. 22 years later, he saw that it was given to Ernie Knoll.
As I told him, I see that development as the same with William Foy and Hazen Foss vs. Ellen White, and even if/as their own revelations were slightly different from what Ellen White went on to shortly receive afterwards, they were essentially quite the same. And those slight variances, when properly studied out, can have quite significant Theological/Prophetic implications.
Ron Beaulieu
I’ll be saying much more on the ministry and message of Ron Beaulieu when I later get around to delving into these later, with me seeing that he had the main prophetic mandate to pointedly expose the incorrect SOP understandings of the SDA Church in an Ezek 8 & 9 context, but I’ll make a brief statement now on a particular key issue that he has, pointedly in seeing/believing that Ernie Knoll is a false prophet. First of all, as I have said before, I see that through Ernie Knoll, God has worked to give the lukewarm Laodicean Church a prophet according to its heart (Ezek 14:1-5, 7-8). This speaks nothing against the sincerity of Ernie Knoll himself, but it is just the needed message that God has given him for the SDA Church. And so, of all of the claim prophets to the SDA Church, which I see, as detailed in this present blog post, have been raised up by God, Ernie Knoll’s messages have been chosen to be the most difficult to gauge as they intrinsically contain, particularly early on, a sort of “lukewarm”, non-alarmingly denunciatory tone. However I see that this has changed in later dreams of Ernie Knoll.
Along these lines, Ron Beaulieu, as he discussed here, has a major problem with Knoll’s Dream #22, “The SDA Church” because he thinks that Knoll is teaching therein that the ‘sinners in Zion will be shaken out of the Church during the Shaking while the Church does not fall’. Of course EGW pointedly said this in LDE 180.5. A foundational teaching of Beaulieu is that “staying in the physical Church” is not a proof that you are not being Shaken out, and I fully agree with his view and understanding here because this has led to SDA’s having a sense of complacency by them weekly attending Church and maintaining their names on the books, yet while still being in their Laodicean state. Furthermore, Beaulieu claims in his exposition that he received a message in a vision from Gabriel confirming, according to Beaulieu(’s understanding/interpretation/conclusion) that Knoll is a false prophet. Unfortunately Beaulieu does not give the specific details of his vision so that it can be transparently and objectively examined, but I am highly suspecting that he actually misconstrued what the “Angel Gabriel” had actually said. By the way, as discussed here, Ernie Knoll claimed that his “Herald” was the Angel Gabriel. So who is right here?
Succinctly said, given what I have Biblically seen about Ernie Knoll, and seeing that Beaulieu main disagreement with Him revolves around this SDA Shaking dream, I do not see, on one hand, that the claimed “confirming statement” of the Angel Gabriel in a vision on November 28, 2008 to Beaulieu, related in here, that he:
“was not shown an expose’ of Ernie before this point in time and was told that the Lord Jesus wanted folk, even some who regard themselves as “reformers,” to see how easily they can be duped by Satan’s devices and that this is exactly why He has appointed me my commission in exposing the cherished errors of the professing Seventh-day Adventist church and all its false prophets and false priests for hire “watchmen.””
is actually not condemnatorily speaking about Ernie Knoll himself, nor his actual message, but was rather a veiled statement by God. I rather see that this statement is actually speaking to the way in which the leaders and so-called reformers of the SDA Church can themselves be duped by Satan by interpreting the SOP revelations of God according to the idols of their hearts, as involved in Ezek 14:1-5, 7-8. And is indeed the main concern of Beaulieu’s ministry.
And so, according to this manner, many are wrongly construing certain “ambiguous” messages in contained in Knoll’s dreams. The pertinent case in point here is the belief that Knoll’s SDA Church Shaking Dream results in only the sinners in Zion being shaken out. The fact of the matter is that when the dream is more carefully and objectively read, it seems manifest to me that literally all who had been inside the SDA Church before all, one/some way or the other, went out of that Church Building. Many people were immediately “thrown from the windows” (probably those who had fallen sound asleep (ala. Acts 20:9)). “Many come running out and down the steps.” (Those “steps” can be symbolically understood as the Three Angels Messages (EW 258-259ff) which lead to a firm Platform (=God’s Church), as it developed in SDA History with the Three Angels messages being well understood well before (ca. 1847) the SDA Church was formally organized in 1863). Others were “falling and rolling down the steps.” Thus these “non-asleep” ones did not go out on their own power/strength, but stumbled out. Following the Shaking, which suddenly stops, the steps (=3 Angels’ Messages) are first inspected and found to be intact. (=God’s Final Warning Message was not affected). The Church’s Pillars (which symbolize its ‘Fundamental Truths’) are also intact. (See this in this post). It is then revealed to Knoll that: “many people now walking up the steps of the church.” And that is a detail that is also key in this revelation. While it is not said that those who had been “Shaken out” were all who had been inside the Church, it apparently/probably is the entire Church, in perfect accordance to EGW’s 1908 revelation discussed here that: during a whirlwind judgement by God on the SDA Church which is to ‘sweep away all of the refuge of “plastered up” and whitewashed, false Peace, lies’ of SDA’s (Ezek 13 & Isa 28:14-21) “there was not a Seventh-day Adventist to be seen”. So evidently, as also seen in Ezek 9:8; cf. 11:13, that Shaking is so thorough and severe that no one is seen or said to have been left inside the Church then. It is also after that Shaking that those prior Shaken out SDA’s are permitted to become part of God’s Church again and they are shown to be walking up those steps again and reentering the Church, now as completely changed/purified people. So I see that a total shaking out of SDA Church members was actually, veiledly, shown to Knoll. And that perfectly agrees with the applicable statement in Rev 11:13 as well as EGW 1908 vision which showed that only lay members were left after that Shaking and they reorganized themselves into congregations and chose new leaders from among them. However the physical building is shown to remain. What does that actually mean?
In the typical Shaking acts of God, He acts to ‘shake what can be shaken so that what cannot be Shaken can remain (Heb 12:27), and so if the ‘physical Church structure survive the Shaken, then they must have been properly built up.’ Indeed, in Knoll’s symbolic depiction, it is what was brought into the Church (e.g., vending machines and pastry carts (=empty calorie and commercialized “ministry” enterprises)) which are shaken out. The Church’s members were also not properly tended to by the Church’s False-Shepherding leadership (=Ezek 34), from pastors, teachers to administrators), and so they too were shaken out, yet God acted justly in this by permitting those “sheep” who had been mis-fed and misled be able to return into the Church after this thorough Shaking (=Ezek 34:17, 20-22). So only the actual “tares” and false shepherd, (which is justly all its present leaders, who at the very least will lose their prior position in the Shaking aftermath/restoration), who are permanently Shaken out. However God apparently will act to literally, physically spare the Church. Namely is physical constructions and assets, (e.g., Churches, Universities, Hospitals, Publishing Houses, etc), at least those which were built according to the Bible/SOP model (e.g, Colleges in a rural/country setting, Hospital which are not in the midst of urban areas, etc), with those ‘mis-located constructions’ not being worthwhile to spare as they will be engulfed in the subsequent “shaking of God” upon the rest of the world, particularly the world’s cities. (And so, at the very least, those who have control of those wrongly built physical assets should seek to sell and relocate/reestablish them as soon as possible).
So I see in all of this that God will be acting to spare all of the physical aspects of the Church for the purified ones who will survive the Shaking and re-enter the ‘physically still standing Church’, even then probably still officially called the SDA Church, for mainly ready public relational reasons, though that post-Shaking Church will actually, fully have the “character” (= “name”) found in the “FSZC” Denominational name advanced here. And the way in which God will effectuate this “intact takeover” is by removing all of the present false-shepherding leaders from their position and having His purified and righteous people to take full and total control of those assets, which they will properly use in God’s service, as those resources were originally meant to be used. So this “hostile takeover” can actually seamlessly be done by, e.g., a called, emergency, full-scale, General Conference Session, (even if necessary, for late booking and accommodation reasons, at a temporarily vacated SDA University Campus (improvingly comparable to how early GC’s were many times held at the 4000-seat Battle Creek Dime Tabernacle), e.g., Andrews or Loma Linda, -with internet and TV transmission to local Churches where members will be able to follow it and also directly participate in the voting), (or during a campus’ prolonged off-school days when it is normatively vacated), where the righteous membership then will clearly see how their prior leaders have misled and mis-fed them and will vote, probably in one motion and vote to have every single leader in the SDA Church summarily removed from their position. At least those who, as in EGW’s 1908 vision, had priorly been merely “seeking position” in the Church, and these could, if justly applicable, actually “maintain” (i.e., regain) their position during subsequent new leadership selecting and votings. And at the very least, the SDA Constitution should be amended to have a better controlling balance so that Church members are not helplessly at the mercy of leaders who are actually not doing their job and could easily be judiciously “recalled” by the initiation of Church members within their organizational constituency.
There is a more extreme circumstance in which this ‘takeover and thorough leadership cleansing’ can be done, and that is in a more adversarial manner in which the Church faces and loses a major lawsuit which it cannot afford, and therefore is obligated to turn over the “keys of the Church” to the winner of that lawsuit. That person/party will then have total control of the Incorporated SDA Church, and can lawfully operate it as a private corporation as its actual (majority shares) owner, and that even Biblically so (=Ezek 34:23-24ff; cf. 37:24ff). God indeed has many justly applicable ways to protect and preserve His invested interests in His Church, even through a most rigorous Shaking event (=Ezek 20:33-38ff). And/Yet, as all prophecies or promises of God are conditional (Jer 18:9-10; CH 377.2), if/should the SDA Church leadership and sympathizing members try to resist a peaceful takeover of God’s Church by refusing to peacefully surrender, but instead, as the Jews in 70 A.D. to Titus’s great dismay, take refuge in God’s Temple and try to fight its spurious revolting war from inside there, God will then allow them to even bring about total, utter physical ruin, to their own punishing detriment given the greater harm that they will then be doing to God’s redemptive cause.
So, in summary here, I think that Beaulieu, and that by God’s knowing permission and for His greater Shaking Purposes then, (sort as with God’s veiled and ambiguous answer to Joshua in Josh 5:13-14), biasedly misconstrued the statement by the Angel Gabriel about Knoll and his ministry, as it is later seen by the facts, as just discussed above, that Knoll’s Shaking Dream did not actually involve that anyone remain within the SDA Church during its Ezek 9 Shaking. So the actual direct message given to both Beaulieu and Knoll, (i.e., not their subjective understanding of it), are both correct here and not ‘completely contradictory’ (as Beaulien wrongly emphatically states.)
Eugene Shubert's Prophetic Revelations and Ministry
The following is an open communication which was done with/for Eugene Shubert in response this his responding to my above referencing to my Section on Ernie Knoll (see here and here). And so, as I had said I would do, I have taken the time, while in the midst of my analytical research on Ernie Knoll’s section above to also engage him in regards to his prophetic dream posted here, and also his other claims and ministry. (As what initially follows here is my interpretive understandings based upon what he had posted about his dream up to then, it does not include the follow up discussion exchange which we had on this following this initial response of mine. So, as that discussion is done on his forum, you’ll have to continue following it over there, starting in this responding post of his. (See also a brief initial exchange with him prior to the following posting on this other forum.)).
Alright Eugene. I have gotten around to reading your main dream and also skimming through what you discovered about the organization of the book of Revelation. I have to say that thus far I am not seeing anything wrong with it, indeed quite to the contrary, I am believing that God led you to this understanding. You linking this to what transpired in Amos 7:1-6 is also most insightful and indeed prophetically appropriate. Much can indeed be comparatively seen for such pertinent prophetic associations. The main issue of difference that I am having, and it is more a spiritual one than a substantive one, is with the how you are exclusively applying your understanding here. From my studied view of the prophecies of the Bible, I have seen a principle of actual non-exclusivity in an understanding. In other words, when I had thought that I had figured out how the book of Revelation should be fulfilled, I then found another parallel way in which its prophecies can also find another application. So I therefore would not be ‘only seeing’ only one way in which the prophecies of Revelation now apply nor that only a certain part of Revelation can now find a valid application. I rather see the entire book being able to have an entire refulfillment, and not necessary in any strict order, particularly in what I understand now as being and Eschatological wave of Bible Prophecy, even beyond the book of Revelation, or Daniel.
So while I do see that your view is valid, I am seeing it as one of several ways in which, in God’s great wisdom, His prophecies can have an indicative and guiding fulfillement today. And the more in tune someone is to God’s increasing full will, the better they’ll be able to see and follow those parallel and supporting applications.
That introductorily said in regards to your main theology, it dovetails perfectly with what I have perceived is the case with your dream. It too, actually like any valid prophecy given by God, as indeed seen with OT & certain Daniel and the NT and Revelation, as well as SOP prophecies, they can at least have a secondary and tertiary, if not more, spiritually non-contradictory applicable fulfilment. God’s evident purpose through such prophetic adaptability is to be able to provide a full prophetic map and guide for any generation which would become triumphant and thus warrant the just and fair ushering in of the end.
Therefore I’ll give you, as succinctly as possible, my understanding of your dream, which, if you also see as I do the fact that God’s Truth, pointedly revolving around his Full Sabbatical Truth (Isa 58; cf. Matt 25:31-46) has by our Eschatological Wave days, significantly advanced thus automatically generating a resetting (i.e., other wave) of the Bible and SOP prophecies. Most prominently, this is all like God’s OT prophecies to a literal Israel had to be reset and spiritually reapplied to the relatively triumphant NT Israel/Church. I see that God continues to work according to such a principle, indeed as “circumstance on the ground” require, and in His great wisdom, He is managing to do so without losing/leaving out anything in His word (Isa 55:10-11). So as a preface here, I see that your understanding of your dream would be the “local and (somewhat) literal” understanding of it, yet, as Biblically typical, there now also is a wider “regional/global and spiritual/symbolic” application for such a prophetic revelation. (For the sake of time, I am presuming that you would know from memory, as I do, and thus understand, where I am getting my symbolic identifications in the Bible (cf. here) without me specifically citing the references, so I won’t be including them here, pointedly because it would take me added time to find out exactly what those verse references are. If you need me to explicitly provide any specific/particular reference for a symbolic allusion then let me know.)
First of all, I must state right off the bat, and you can read the details in this bio blog post of mine, that I have had a very similar experience to your in coming to my present understandings in Biblical Truth, and most interestingly enough, also with a water shed moment with the BRI’s Bill Shea in 1998 in regards to his evaluation of my finding on a part of the chronology of the 70 Weeks. And it is when he, or any other pertinent (scholarly) SDA entity would either help me or give me a worthwhile or constructive criticism of my newly discovered view, that I then decided to set out on my own and do the require deeper studies myself. Like I said, you can find all of the details in my “bio blog post”. I spiritually don’t think our quite similar experiences is a mere coincidence, but rather see that God has led us both in related ways to discover a key new truth in his word, that those in responsible position would not bother to do and thus were neededly bypassed.
An Interpretive Analysis of your dream:
In your dream you mention that you were led to take special attention to how dazzling white the seat was. I see here that God indeed wanted to draw your attention to the this symbolism of a seat. In the Bible a seat is figuratively spoken of as a place of fellowship. Christ’s disciples as other religious leaders strove to get the best seats. Even God invite his downtrodden Anointed One to ‘take a seat at his right hand until He comes to make the Anointed’s enemies His footstool.’ The seat also involves a comfortable place of resting. So in this way, and with white being the color for righteousness, and thus most fitting to represent whatever involves Christ’s Gospel, the most righteous corpus of teachings, I am understanding that you being seated on a dazzling white seat interpretively/spiritually involves/implies you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place, though you actually could not see who was driving, and though your past nemesis, Pastor C, was up front, and thus, as typical (especially in those pre-GPS 1988 days), the one responsible for finding/mapping the best way to the place where you all, including the driver, were not sure how to get to.
When you say; ‘I knew there was a horse besides you’ instead of the more definite, I saw that there was a horse besides you’, it straightly implies that this was all based on here an sufficiently informed, yet still assuming, understanding rather than a concretely seen and ascertained one. So, understanding that a horse represents a choice resource for travel/mobility, which made horses key to winning a war in Bible times, and thus a fitting spiritual symbol for an advancing Church Militant and with especially White Horses being the most prominent, common and choice “accessory” in the pomp and celebration for a “Triumphant” Militant Campaign, and with a White Horse, as with Revelation’s first seal’s horse, being a symbol for a phase of the Church Militant advancing with a righteous message, a horse that is not only immobilized, but is also being driven around, by pertinently enough a ‘synthetically “horsepowered”’ vehicles, a modern invention of man, and with the obvious imagery of a horse being crammed into the back seat of a red convertible, presumedly a type of sports car which itself typically does not have much backseat space, then the whole situation here seems to be one that was artificial and forced, yet you and also that horse seem to be at ease with going along with this state of “travelling circumstances”. Apparently you were trusting that Pastor C knew best how to get you there, and that presumedly fast sports car would be much better than you riding that horse alone, even if you yourself knew how to get where you wanted to go. Indeed, e.g., 240 “horsepower”, as it is found in some cars, is logically much more powerful, and thus faster and more efficient than 1 horsepower. So you, more logically than deferentially, trustingly went along with that travelling arrangement, and was also led/allowed to believe that God’s Church Militant was also along for that ride, and the dazzling of those white seats diversionarily put you at ease here. In other words, at that time you had not logical reason, including manifest divine ones, to not belief that this was not the best way to go about your journeying. I am sure you can readily see here how this all relates with how you were trusting you Church leadership (represented by Pastor C) in your initial Biblical proclamation endeavors, as well as also strongly believing that this was God’s will as His (evidently righteous) Church Militant was also going along with this, however unrealistic it actually was in regards to a horse fitting in the back seat of a car. In actuality, if a horse had to be involved in this trip, the best and most realistic/logical way of doing this, and with a horse being involved here for a tangible/needful reason other than merely being a “passenger”, (therefore transporting the horse in a special trailer pulled by the car would also be unnecessary for a horse, unless it was merely to be a passive “commodity” here instead of an active ‘resource” = the proper tangible use and function of God’s Church in True Gospel endeavors vs. a mere, passive commodity as commonly done with the Church today where the world’s things are substituted for the Church in such attempts), would be for each one of you to have and ride a (white) horse. That would somewhat be less comfortable, and slow your progress to ca. 30 mph at best, but, if you must take a horse along for the ride, then that would be the best and most practical way to do so.
I indeed see all of this to spiritually, more generally, be prophetically representative of the way the SDA Church leadership has increasingly come to trust more in the various devices (especially technological), methods and policies of man rather than going by what God has instructed in His word and has variously and repeatedly clearly stated will bring true success. So, e.g., in regards to meeting the needs of the poor as Christ’s Full/True Gospel incontrovertibly mandates, the Church has decided to predominantly utilize the ways of the world, including using capitalistic ways of funding. And so, while this surfacely seems to be the fastest way to get to where they are endeavoring to God, on top of them actually not Biblically knowing how to get to where they want to go (having indeed not properly noted God’s direction, nor following his provided map), they instead are wasting time asking the people of this world to help them get to where they need to go, and are indeed getting frustrated at them when these worldlings either mislead them or waste their time by honestly trying to help them the best way they know how. No, the entire fault and way finding responsibility here lies with the Church, indeed pointedly with the “guiding” leadership, and not even with lay workers (represented by you) who are trustingly riding along with them in the back seat, nor also for the “faceless” mere lay members who, through various non-direct work support (i.e., the return of their tithe to fund the Church “work excursions” as this road trip), who are indeed actually the ones who are, (through such funding), directly “driving” Church workers around and, indirectly, “driving” Church work efforts. And a Church which has to ascertain from a worldling if it is on the right path, thus which is indeed actually not sure of where it is going, is a good a completely lost.
Right vs. Left
Now being on the “left side” of something is the side of less favor, even (comparative) disfavor. (cf. Matt 25:32-33). This more generally involves you and the driver being on the left side here which the “supposed/assumed” Church Itself (the horse) and its leadership (Pastor C) are on the right side, the side of favor. Indeed God expects much more from the Church entity in general and its paid/formal leadership than respectively, (active = “travelling”) lay workers and lay members. In fact He variously does bless/favor more the Church and its leadership so that they can properly do their work and does not place such expectation and responsibility upon (active) lay workers and lay members. Interestingly enough in the back seat vs. front seat seating here, and also involving the right vs. left sides, the Church lay workers contributions come to favor the Church itself (as seen with “supporting ministries”), while the contributions of an active lay member, who by not being a lay worker, is thus merely returning a tithe to the Church for its contribution, can merely just be favor/benefit a Church leader if that Church leader is not in turn faithful in carrying out the duties they are being paid to properly do, as indeed seen in the cases of pastors who are effectively merely cashing in a paycheck and not doing any Church favoring work. More can also be said here, based on the seating arranged me on: involving the split back to front seating of how, on the right side, the Church (horse) psychologically depends upon a responsible leader (Pastor C seated directly in front of it, to beneficially exist, for the Church will not be/act better than the conduct of its leaders; and in a similar work, the lay worker is created from a lay member fully taken hold of its duty as part of the Church beyond more that just doing the bare tangible minimum of faithfully returning a tithe.
While Pastor C being one who enjoys discussion seemed like the prefect trait for him to be a pastor/preacher, it quite evidently was completely useless here, even when asking for directions from a worldling, because, most predominant/important/crucial in that pointed situation, he himself was not sure of how to get to where he need to get to. So all of the smoothe talking here and great oratory skill was not at all beneficial here. In part this pointedly depicts many in the Church (particularly formal) leadership who either get into the ministry and/or are highly esteemed and placed at preaching forefronts merely because they have great communications skills. But come the real/crucial matters, they actually are as useless as, moreover, a gas attendant who does not know his surrounding directions, as commonly depended upon to know. So the gas attendant to was indeed not up to his expected conveniencing responsibility. And thus I could moreoverly see how this perfect storm scenario of a pastor and a gas attendant who, in their respective field and duties, are not up to par, can indeed be quite frustrating for someone, like you explicit were here (vs. the faceless lay member), who is waiting and depending on either of them to come through. And of course, with pride also mixed into this situation where the Pastor and the Gas attendant were likely then resort to acting like they could/should somehow be able to figure this out, especially with the tow combining their knowledge here, how this directions attempt could and did drag on for long.
The Other Horse
And it is manifestly then that God redirected your attention to a better alternative. You there saw a, manifestly, coloredly non-descript horse, (or perhaps its particularly color itself was not what was to be important to you then), yet you were obviously “dumbstruckly” smitten by how beautiful it still was. You were seeing this horse which, though in an artificially imprisoning/restricting corral, was in a much more natural state and scene than that of a (white) horse coup/crammed up in the back seat of a car. The horse was also standing, as is the most normative stance of a horse. (Really do horse ever lay done to even rest, then even sleep standing up, probably reflective of how a horse (=Church Militant) is always to be on its guard.) And so you were seeing this horse in that most natural and normative state of preparedness and readiness. And so here, you can understand that God had drawn your attention away to another Church which would immediately strike you as “most beautiful”. And contrary to you quite natural disposition, (which reminds me of a prophetic dream of mine where I had two large German Shepherd dogs in my house when I have always hated dogs), you could not resist affectionately and “encouragingly” petting and caring for that most attractive animal, indeed emphasizingly telling it how beautiful it was (to you).
The tall grass, particularly as it is depicted in somewhat detrimental terms, i.e., being “ungroomedly/wildly” so tall that it came to completely hide the feet of that horse, therefore, in away, you had to merely logically assume that the horse was actually firmly standing on its feet, as it could easily instead be e.g., “deceptively” laying down on top of an elevated platform which was completely obstructed from view by the tall grass. In the Bible grass actually is compared to what ‘stands against the word of God’ (Isa 40:8 - from the ‘Elijah-type reform’/“Out of Babylon” (Isa 40-55), clarion call chapter (Isa 40:1ff; cf. Luke 3:4-6)), and these are tangibly (self-important) people (Isa 40:7). So, bringing all of these natural and symbolic elements on the grass together here, this tall grass completely hiding the horses legs represent: wild/ungroomed/uncultured “people” who are growing and defiantly “standing tall” in opposition to the word of God and who are thus causing the observable fact that this most beautiful horse is, as it is actually still showing, that it is squarely and firmly standing on its four feet. So, interpretively applying those symbols here, the grouping of people who are actually defiantly opposing the word of God are preventing you from concretely seeing that this most attractive Church Militant is firmly standing established on its legs. Yet that fact, if you trust what you can clearly see and trustingly assume, indeed much more tangible than “knowing”, manifestly without any evidence that a (white) horse was seated next to you in the car, which moreover would have to be in a completely irrational setting of a car as compared to that horse visibly standing out in nature, even if here restricted/artificial “nature” (= the corral), should lead you to strongly believe that you are not being deceived here, and indeed, that did not at all preoccupy your attention here, as you were more consumed by the great beauty of the horse.
With that experience, it is then that the harsh reality suddenly struck you. You say the true colors of your trusted Church leadership. Indeed Pastor C had no reason to (1) hurl insults and (2) fault the gas attendant for not knowing the direction to his own (Pastor C’s) destination. So he was here acting quite indifferently/obliviously to his own duties. I am not sure what you then mean that ‘the horse was then right in front of you’ which to me implies that the horse was now somehow effectively acting to block your way, manifestly before you yourself became drawn in an engrossed by the contentious situation created by Pastor C attitude and fault here. And manifestly to maintain your entire attention, indeed as before, the horse was quickly transforming into what it apparently originally always was, which is an angel. (As an angel probably cannot take the form of an animal, however, as seen with the use of the serpent in Eden, it could spiritually/psychologically “commandeer” the form of an animal for its use, this morphing imagery was probably indicating to you that this beautiful horse (=a Church Militant) was moreoverly the work of an angel of God. Thus it had angelic guidance/leadership. You evidently became quite interested in that implication and so watched intently that revelation thinking that you would merely be shown what an ‘angel looked like’, but oddly enough, this was an angry angel. Evidently it was not preoccupied with satisfying your surface interest and curiosity, indeed concealing it face, but, by ensuingly begin to speak, it wanted you to instead focus on its message rather than merely the exteriors of its appearance. And as that message unfolded that angel further morphed into a now divinely like figure. Biblically that actually can only be tangibly represented by an appearance/manifestation of the “Angel of the Lord”. And just short of that would be that (7) Mighty Angels (=Cherubim), (which form God the Son had firstly (i.e., while in Heaven) being incarnated in (=Michael)), who exclusively stand in the immediate presence of God the Father. Evidently with God seeming to be right behind that Angel and/or speaking directly through him, then that was indeed a Mighty Angel who, as seen on the Ark of the Covenant, do indeed stand in the very presence of God the Father.
So at best this segment was recursively showing you how: (1) that readily observable beautiful horse was under the guidance of an angel, (2) how that angel was a very important/Powerful Angel and (3) even being in a position to seem to be directly representing God (Himself). All of these themes are actually pointedly and similarly involved in “My First Vision”
“The Purpose of an argument is...” (See this understanding’s subsequent corroboration starting here.)
The word “argument” interestingly has two primary/common, but almost oxymoronic, definitions. The one that readily comes to mind is the secondary detrimental one of: “a contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement” but its initial definition is actually the more constructive one of: “a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true”. So if you have the right mindset of what an argument should be here, you should actually be able to readily complete that initial/introductory statement of the angel. I.e., proverbially said: is the purpose of an argument for you merely to “generate heat” (= secondary, detrimental meaning”) or instead to “produce light” (= primary, constructive meaning”). Interestingly enough, this is a common, major, fork in the road issue in the SDA Church in regards to ascertaining precise Biblical truth, which is indeed the “direction” they are needing to get to where they need to go. The Church could pursue this pivotal goal by ‘dealing in proven facts and researched assertions’ or it can instead, as it is popularly doing let people just spout off whatever subjective opinion they have. (This is the approach that is being endeavor in my WBSC Research Institute Project (see also here)). And when that latter approach is preferred, it can’t but lead to heated and vehement arguments particularly if it is also being insisted that concrete truth should be arrived at this way. And so that is apparently what went down between Pastor C (=Church Leadership) and the gas attendant (worldling with work duties and optional societal responsibilities). They both engaged and maintain a discussion as to how to arrive at where they were supposed to go by neither one of them having previously bothered to ascertain the key facts here. In fact, if, particularly the Pastor had done his “homework” here, there would not even be a need for him to stop to ask that gas attendant for directions. How much more non-sensical is him getting upset at and insulting the gas attendant when he too failed just as, and even worst that the pastor had, because a gas attendant cannot logically be expected to know all of the possible driving direction for every traveller who may drive by his way. Yet all of this debacle turned out to be for your benefit because, most of this time, you were instead seeing the gradual/morphing “theophany” of a beautiful horse-turned-Mighty Angel-resembling God Himself.
Interestingly enough, the simple, and actually innocuous in itself, explicitly incomplete statement of the Angel only was mentally perceived by you as a most omninous “Woe” (which I like to define, as used in the Bible, as ‘a Warning Of Evil’), And even when the Angel/the Revelation was “toned down” and merely the instructive message here was being repetitively emphasized, you still was overwhelmed by the richness in each carefully used word that followed. In fact you saw that it was best for you to parsingly take things in parts, even single word rather than a whole sentence, and seek to understand what it meant, rather than casually just try to understand all at once what was being said. The message indeed involved so much deep and awesome meaning that you just could not think that fast (i.e., at listening speed) to properly grasp it all, but had to pause and let each pronouncement first soak in. Unfortunately you gave up after merely one sentence and since you evidently did not then remember anything past “the purpose of an argument is” then this encounter and hearing all prove to be completely useless for you since you then did not even know what ‘the purpose of an argument was.’ And just trying to firstly remember what had been said became your greatest necessity upon waking up.
The Application of the Dream
As I a had said to you, upon reading your prophetic dream, I increasingly was perceiving how it was presently being fulfilled. And like I said in the introductory statements above, I do see that true prophetic dreams of God can have a secondary, if not more, valid application. So it is actually perfectly acceptable, indeed normal, for you to readily get a first, =Local and Literal understanding and application from your dream, however there can also be a Secondary wider Regional and more Spiritual/Symbolic application.
And base on all of these interpretations of the involved imagery and symbols, which I trust you can see were straightforwardly expounded, I, succinctly stated here, see that the Secondary meaning here applies to anyone in/from the SDA Church who come to realize that there is something quite odd by the way the SDA Church is trying to accomplish the Militant Gospel Work of God and their preferred method are quite unrealistic, ineffective and futile. In fact, they actually have no idea of how to get where they are suppose to go. And in such times of not-knowing they chumily turn to the counsel of the world, but those efforts also prove to be completely futile and only end up producing more strife. And it is in this pivotal time, as time that can be seen in the several interlude segments in the prophetic series of Revelation, pointedly occurring between the Sixth and Seventh elements in those series, that God is now instead vividly drawing the attention of those who are wanting to properly advance His work to His already standing and establish, innately most beautiful Church Triumphant literally “waiting in the wings” by the side of the road, and actually/indeed being artificial “corralled” in and also greatly obstructed from view by wild/unruly/undisciplined/uncultivated “worthless” people, which, if removed, would reveal that this replacing Church Triumphant is squarely standing on its feet. And that Church is indeed being directly and angelicly led by Him, by the message of the Third Sealing Mighty Angel, the Angel Gabriel who has the Sabbatical sealing message of God which will establish that Church Triumphant made up of the 144,000. (= Rev 7:1-8ff)
And so I am here seeing all is being (Widely, Secondarily) fulfilled by how people can see for themselves, if they are honest, the true beauty of the Church Triumphant of God (see here and here), even when compared with the best of what the SDA Church Militant (=white horse seeming to be in car) had done in trying to accomplish God’s Gospel mandate. And so by carefully and studiously reading in this purposeful Theological Views blog which is to help present the various “Fundamental, Full Truth” messages (cf. summarily, here) for that new Church Triumphant, messages which may be involving in order to comprehend and also have realistically been related in an “angry” admonishing tone due to the light of all of the damage that is being done by the senselessly rebellious and indifferent SDA Church, and messages which are thus indeed filled with “WOES”, one will be able to see and understand these key Biblical truths. Interestingly enough, the only way that one can end up as you did at the end of this dream and not even remember what had been said is by just not bothering to read what is freely available and readily accessible online and also can be read and studied at your leisure. So you can’t begin to blame the angel here, which you indeed did not begin to do in your dream, even when you just could not get what was being said due to the accompanying “nosie and lights” of those messages.
So therein is my spiritual and theological understanding and thus prophetic interpretation of your prophetic dream. Interestingly enough, as typical with an initial or prior wave of understanding, as e.g,. seen in Christ’s Olivet discourse which had fulfillments in the First Century A.D. up to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, then in Church History and is to have another wave(s) of fulfilment for Eschatological times, those prior/first fulfilment usual involve less elements finding a concrete fulfilment than during later/subsequent Waves of fulfilment. Indeed, in your expressed interpretative understanding of your dream (as stated here and here), you seem to entirely leave out in any detail the revealed elements beyond you being waiting in the car while the pastor was asking for directions. I see this being the only possible understanding because the time for that dream to involve, as detailed above, “seeing God’s replacing Church Triumphant” was then not applicable in that first Local and Literal (for you) fulfilment.
Relation to other Divine Prophetic Revelations
Although I won’t be going into great details here, as I said to you before, I have perceivingly seen that with the similar involved symbolisms as in Ernie Knoll’s (pivotal) Dream #15- “Keep Going” of: a convertible car, moreover driven by Knoll’s wife (=lay member) and ‘seeing angels’, and these notions being all allusive to EGW’s dream in (16MR 171-172) of also seeing angels when riding in the “car” transportation of her day, pulled by horses, and there involving those angels actually disapprovingly interacting with EGW herself and all of this being based on the pre-Sealing, Rev 6:16-17 element, as much more fully discussed in here, starting at verses entry, then all four of those visions, plus my own thematically-relate one (posted here), all have to do with the “Wrath of the Lamb” circumstance which the SOP states (DA 825.4) is all because ‘the physically and spiritually needy of the world are being indifferently neglected by the (SDA) Church.’ And so that all leads to time being mercifully prolonged so that God’s expectedly Full Gospel mandate work (Isa 58 & Matt 25:31-46; cf. WM 23-62ff) can actually be done.
[As stated earlier, see more discussions on this dream and the “secondary” interpretation presented above, starting here in Eugene Shubert’s forum].
June 10, 2013 - Follow Up on Eugene Shubert’s Revelations and Ministry
Well if you have followed the above provided links and their discussion context, as it should also be done with the links provided now in this section you can, and will, see that we do indeed have our differences, and as usual for such differences when there is not a commonly accepted authoritative arbitrating source, which as always is to be the Bible, followed by the Biblical writings of EGW, then trying to arrive at a resolution is literally futile. (cf. Amos 3:3). So literally from the start, as it was mentioned in the first few statement of the dream interpreting section above, our understanding of things were, as mentioned here, ‘divergent’ as Shubert has been, and frankly most eerily (to say the very least), is decidedly and deliberately refusing to engage anything which involves Christ Full Sabbatical Gospel message which is to do whatever is possible/feasible to help people in also/especially physical needs. Not coincidentally, that is the very reason why the Jews/Jewish Leaders in the time of Christ rejected Him.
Now it would be one thing if that was merely my own view of Eugene Shubert, but the undeniable observable fact is that God has also been variously warning him that his presently is on a track that will not end up in the Truth. That was clearly seen, as discussed from the explanations started above, in that dream it is clear that God showed Shubert that neither him, nor the SDA Pastor and Member he was riding along with had any idea of either how to get to where they wanted to go, or even where is was that they were supposed to go. The best that Shubert does in that depiction is him leaving the car to admire a horse now outside the car and in a corral, while the SDA Pastor is trying to get directions to wherever he probably still does not know where he was going. The when that horse morphs into an menacing angel with Shubert feeling a “woe” which the Bible reveals is never a good thing to experience (i.e., be the object of), he does become completely loss as to what that meant/involved. Well the truth of what God was revealing to him here, as God also does in several other dreams given to Shubert, he is actually great danger of being ministerially useless and perhaps even spiritually loss, and that despite, or really probably because of the light that God has given him, which, as I have also pointed out to him, is all due to how he has allowed egocentrism, selfishness as well as various eisegetical and subjective approaches to studying the Bible to mar the genuine message that God has given him. Really it is jointly like the way William Miller (which Shubert claims to be a spiritual revival of), Balaam, Jonah and Nebuchadnezzar allowed various unbiblical traits, stances and decisions to mar what God had variously genuinely given to them. So unlike what Shubert evidently skewedly believes, there is not a “once-inspired-ever/always-inspired” principle in regards to Biblical callings and inspiration. People, especially those who have been gifted or directly inspired by God still have to continually check whatever they believe and claim with the already proven revelations of God to see if they still are in the Light.
Shubert’s John Harvey Kellogg/Living Temple Vision
Other warning dreams (actually here an awake “vision” -thus pointedly focusing on future/forthcoming developments; -whereas “dreams” corely involve past events) of God to Shubert is the one he relates here where when he thought he was reading the words of John Harvey Kellogg’s “Living Temple” pantheism book, it was actually the words of a vision (I assume, of his) that he was actually reading, and which to him was a clear presentation of Kellogg’s pantheism. Now that’s eerie to say the least. The way he read ‘his’ vision was “a clear presentation of Kellogg’s pantheism”. There is no qualifying mention there at all that he was reading a “correcting or exposing” view of Kellogg’s false teaching, but just the exact same heretical thing that Kellogg had concocted. Therefore, the sequitur and straightforward conclusion here can only be that God was warning him that the way he was reading and understanding/“believing” his vision(s) would resultingly be tantamount to the Omega Apostasy teachings of Kellogg. See follow up discussional comments here[#179].
Shubert’s Noam Chomsky Dream
In another, recent, dream which he relates here, which is depictively linked to the Bible’s Four Living Creatures theme he sees that a person, which he candidly considers to be one of his “source” and “luminary” about the Three Angels Message (which by definition only means one thing: he considers these people as the “inspiration and origin of his views”), moreover, the Jew, Noam Chomsky, is being shown to be those Living Creatures seated upon their whirling wheels. He moreover sees him in Palestine, which, with the Israel-Arab issue literally being the “point-zero” of the scourge of the world today as seen in the Geo-Conflict between, not Communist vs. Capitalist factions, as it prominently was during the Cold War years, but between Militant Islam and the Western Countries, could really only imply/mean, that Chomsky functioning as that usurping all-in-all Living Being was the solution to a World Peace, thus intrinsically to a (commonly accepted) New World Order, particularly societally, i.e., between Islam and the Christian West. (cf. my responses here and here). But since God’s solution for this world’s issues, conflicts and problems lies squarely in His actual Four Living Creatures/Cherub plans, then that dream can only be a warning by God to Shubert that he is on the wrong course, which clearly is, as I pointed out to him here and here by making such pagans his “Thomas Paine-like” “experts”, “sources” and “luminaries” (=the EW 262-266 Spiritualistic deception, -with, as pertinently discussion in here that “Spiritualism” not merely being that a belief that ‘the dead are not really dead’ but as actually involved in that Eden deception, that ‘a person can disobey/ignore God and still be able to live’.) So the depicted warning from God to Shubert is also quite clear here if/when one knows the Truth about the Biblical themes implicated,
And if such warnings are not more explicitly stated/revealed to Shubert it is, and actually out of mercy, because God is actually here dealing with a “rebellious” stance. I.e. one which is aware that what they are doing is not fully according to God’s will but don’t care. And so, just as the SOP reveals in PP 255.5 that the Angel which appeared to kill Moses in Exod 4:24-26 did not actually utter a word, but let Moses recollect for himself what he already clearly knew he was in disobedience of, God is here letting Shubert figure out and heed why he is indeed, as those dreams all involve, on an unbiblical, and ominously/dangerously so, course.
Relatedly I like to mnemonicly understand such “woe” (cf. e.g., Zech 11:17; Matt 23:13; Jud 1:11; Rev 8:13), (which is consistently involved in those dreams), as a: “Warning Of Evil”.
Eugene Shubert’s Rev. 5 Implicating Dream
So with that ‘warning of God to Eugene Shubert’ track record as a background, and in mind, here, I’ll spend a little more time on discussing a dream of Shubert that I recently discovered on his forum/website. I see it as providential that I only came across it now, though it had been posted since January 2011, as that has allowed my recent discussion with Shubert to transpired which, just from his resolutely stance against engaging the Full Sabbatical Gospel of Christ message and also his competition based obsession over Ernie Knoll in a Biblically unsupportable attempt to try to entirely impeach him (as if he himself was both personally and ministerially unimpeachable, which easily is not the case), which “coloringly” filled in what I had long observed about Shubert in regards to his allowing egregious base traits of selfishness, covetousness and pride to overrule a rational consideration of (actual) Biblical teachings. So it was quite confirming to me to see the various topics that we had recently been discussing be the focal points of this dream, and that it too was a warning of a pursued wrong course by Shubert.
So here is my analysis of Shubert’s January 29, 2011 dream in the light of all pertinent, transpired understandings and interpretive contributions. (Shubert’s statements are the highlighted bold sections) -and I includingly address Eugene’s comment here [appealing to a statement he had made 10 years before], that he does not see this dreams as being spiritual meaningful which of course is not how he was viewing it at the time when he mentioned it in that discussion, and indeed why he had mentioned it. I.e., his opening statement that:
The ‘self-impression’ of the dream is candidly/unbiasedly indeed quite indicative and convincing of Divine genuineness.
And, tellingly enough, the charges in his 2011 dreams is that of him being criminally responsible for the death of someone, and not the 2001 related theme of (violating restraining injunctions). And it is not at all surprising to me to see that, here also, Shubert is actually completely clueless as to the actual significant/import and meaning of his own dreams/revelations, which is contributively why, as he states here, he does not actually think himself to be a prophet (despite many key dreams) which if heeded would actually have made his message both fully Biblical and also “prophetic” i.e., truly prophetically guiding:
“My understanding of Revelation 5 was also helped through a personal impression”.
And then also in his resolute, disclaiming concluding statement:
“I apologize for sharing such a bad dream but it vividly reminded me of a feature of genuinely inspired dreams and visions. It is my hope that others will appreciate what I learned from it. For illustrative purposes, I will also counterbalance that depressing selection with an elevating example.”
And, tellingly enough, the charges in his 2011 dreams is that of him being criminally responsible for the death of someone, and not the 2001 related theme of (violating restraining injunctions). And it is not at all surprising to me to see that, here also, Shubert is actually completely clueless as to the actual significant/import and meaning of his own dreams/revelations, which is contributively why, as he states here, he does not actually think himself to be a prophet (despite many key dreams) which if heeded would actually have made his message both fully Biblical and also “prophetic” i.e., truly prophetically guiding:
My understanding of Revelation 5 was also helped through a personal impression. Early Saturday morning, just a few hours before you posted your insights on Revelation 5, I was in great distress in a very unpleasant dream. I quickly forgot most of the dream when I woke up but I remember the gist of it:
-So Eugene actually did/does see something quite Spiritually significant, and moreover ‘most timely so’, in, indicatively enough, this part of his troubling dream that he (I believe, allowed to by God to) remember-ed from it.
(I too at times have this experience where I only recall (or evidently “made to recall”) a certain “key” portion of a longer dream that I had had. So I can see and understand this as God’s purposeful doing....interestingly enough, much like a teacher who tells his/her students to only focus on certain parts of the chapters they had been studying for the next test. The rest was necessary, edu cation/knowledge part but only that part is vitally/determinatively important.)*
* By the way, the background, ‘instantly and vividly impressed’ Biblical episodes which gave the poster here “anni” insights as to the “spiritual causes and implications” as to why John was “weeping much” in Rev 5:4 are Biblically indeed on point and helpful as all of those episodes all involved a party squandering a great opportunity of God in regards to His Enduring Israel Plans, and also another party which cries over that debacle. And as I empirically posit here, it is manifest that grown people, and really, literally everyone at any age, cries as a ‘last resort’, i.e., when they feel that there is nothing else that they could do and/or could have done to avert a present fate.
I was dreaming that determined leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the State were prosecuting me as the accused in a case of wrongful death.
So the charges are indeed distinct than what the SDA Church (manifestly beyond the local Church leadership here to perhaps the State Conference or higher), and the State had actually prosecuted him for. (See Shubert’s account and documentation of this starting here.) So contrary to what he claims and assumes, this dream is not a ‘traumatic reminiscing’, but literally “new and distinct, and duly, heightenedly prosecuted, charges.
The dream was essentially a false memory of a previous real yet kangaroo criminal and civil trial instigated by an insufferable cabal of carnal churchian criminals that were trying to punish and silence me.
Here Shubert allows his own bias/understandings to be mixed in with his relating of the details of the dream. (Pertinently, interestingly enough, something which I have not noticed Ernie Knoll do in relating his dreams). Yet Shubert’s personal views/understandings (and conclusions) are telling here. By saying that the dream was a “false memory” of his prior real prosecution experience, he clearly shows that this dream was not at all thematically like, or related to, either his real life trial experience or his prior/other “traumatic reminiscing” dreams that he had been having. So this is indeed a new theme, however it is evidently made to be related to, and reflective of, Shubert’s real life event. No, instead in this dream he is charged with wrongful death.
In the dream, I was agonizing about unanswerable accusations and evidence that someone died because of my actions.
Interesting “unanswerable accusation”. Tellingly reminds me of how “eerily” Shubert has choose to ‘unanswer’ anything that has to do with what enrages “the Lamb”, no less, Christ, as related in DA 825.4 (=Rev 6:16-17; =Interlocutory Judgements of SDA’s EW 15.2 & 16MR 171.2).
“Agonizing” indeed involves a despair which is really caused by impeaching responsibility and guilt.
-And if the accusations are unanswerable due to “evidence” then the case is for all intents and purposes “shut”. That person is literally guilty as charge. I see ‘unanswerable evidence’ in the many Bible and SOP texts I have repeatedly cited to Shubert about the validity and mandate of Christ Full Sabbatical Gospel Message, such as Matt 25:31-46; Isa 58; DA 825.4; LDE 218.3-219.3; WM 23-63ff; etc, which Shubert indeed ‘does not at all answer’, thus quite evidently, since when he merely thinks has an answer for anything else we discuss he is not shy at all to pompously/dogmatically state it, ‘neither has any disculpating/countering answer for’....yet he indifferently and proudly, stubbornly insist to continue in, his ever more clear, Biblically wrong course of things.
Indeed Shubert course is one which is against the Gospel of Christ, and thus, as I variously have related to him (as if that was actually necessary), is causing the Spiritual and Literal (First and Second) death of many....but Shubert most manifestly does not care about that...hence his “woeful” state. And that state is indeed factually even worse than both the, here accusing, SDA Church and State which he is opposed to, as they are actually have been, or are, trying to help particularly now people in physical needs, but tellingly enough, as both the SDA Church and the State (=World) are trying to do this through some degree of Capitalistic measures and policies, that renders their work as literally and/or effectively void as they still arbitrarily choose to artificially ‘let some live and some die’. ‘Those ways are not God’s ways’ (cf. Isa 55:7ff), thus not what could be done if His (Gospel) ways are/were fully/obediently followed; indeed certainly not what God can, if necessary, Supernaturally, complimentarily do, if He had and honorable way to so bless.
In my great distress and bewilderment I struggled to make sense of it all.
These are the only feelings that one can get when they refuse to even heed God so that He can help and restore them.
I knew that the way things supposedly happened were not the way that I had remembered them.
Interesting differentiating here because, as in real life, Shubert is here trying to realign this dream/(new) experience with the believed “injustice” he had priorly be subjected to by the SDA Church and the State. So, indeed as in real life, he tries to examine everything in the light of his view on that real life prosecution, as he falsely thinks that this justifies his present course, and moreover thinks that God has vindicated him in that ordeal by giving him new light. Fact is, Shubert was Biblically, indeed right to challenge people who held a wrong view of God’s Character, and thus the Atonement (cf. this dedicated blog post), but he was wrong in the unlawful way he sought to resolve that difference. Likewise his various views and teachings do contain valid Biblical light, but as stated above, he then allows various forms of selfishness to hamper and drown out whatever valid Biblical contribution they can make. Indeed pointedly in attempts to correct, hone or advance those views and his understandings as if Truth cannot exist beyond His understandings. As I said to him (see starting from here), that was, pertinently enough, the downfall of William Miller and lead him to reject the Remnant Church truths.
In my recollection of things no one died.
And as there actually ‘agonizing unanswerable evidence’ of that, then it is evident that it is Shubert’s “recollection which is faulty/deficient here. And that is squarely seen in how he indifferently, and effectively, obliviously, refuse to even ponder the issue of people needlessly, literally dying because the Full Gospel is not being more widely implement, let alone preached. So the reason of Shubert lack of recollection and recognition here is subjective obliviousness to the fate of those who are indeed dying...again an undeniable fact that both the SDA Church and the “State” themselves do recognize...but just choose not to do all they actually can to counter it. So the SDA Church and the State in indeed rightly depicted here as being in-the-right, and condemnatorily so, vs. Eugene Shubert, just as Christ says that people who seriously/sincerely do help others in physical need while pass His judgement while even the “ultra-religious and religiously pious will not. (Matt 25:31-46|LDE 218.3-219.3).
I couldn't resolve my confusion logically.
Indeed it cannot even be resolved logically, let alone Biblically. Both concrete confirm Shubert’s guilt.
Applying logic is impossible in dreams.
That again is just Shubert’s personal, (futilely) disculpating-attempting take/commentary here and not what the dream actually implied. That is reflective in his similarly dismissive real life dealings where he also does not even try to engage and disculpate the topic of Christ’s Full Gospel/Righteousness with merely “logical” countering argument and point, let alone the Bible or SOP, but instead resorts to a like-morons-fooling indifferent silence.
There was a part of my consciousness that knew that this was a dream based on a past event.
Indeed it was thematic, deliberately made to reflect what had occurred to him in real life. And, however, this time around, he could not even manufacture the belief of “triumph” that he has in part, spuriously been in regards to the Church opposition and subsequent successful Church+State prosecution of him.
Was it really possible that I forgot (blanked out) major details about my past involvement?
It not only is “possible”, that is the evidenced case...and it is still going on with him. I.e. in regards to the actual Spiritual implication of that meaningful, (“veiledly”) warning dream.
Was I really responsible for someone's demise?
Jesus knows so (DA 825.4)!!
I woke up continuing to wonder about the degree to which I was criminally sinful and responsible in the crime for which I had been accused.
As he continue this thinking when now no longer dreaming, he did see that dream as being much more than a mere traumatic reminiscing, particularly as his real life situation involved none of those serious facts and charges. So Shubert candidly/honestly clearly saw something being “newly” stated revealed, and that, most sequiturly, by God Himself through/in that, therefore, Inspired Dream.
In my awakened state of mind, the doubts that I had based on the false memory/scenario that I was dreaming about evaporated quickly. I estimated that it took about 20 seconds for it to disappear completely.
The Holy Spirit speaks in a “still small (brief) voice”, particularly to those who should already know and do better. So a “non-insistence’ (= a quick, 20 second evaporation) is no proof that this was not a truthful and binding revelation on actual implications.
Conclusion and Rev 5 Link
As I summarily had said to Shubert here, with this dream, corrobated by Shubert’s latest actions and non-answers, proving to be forwardly-lookingly prophetically significant, (indeed just like God revealed the future course of people who inceptive had gone off course, which they indeed followed to a “t”), God was through this most objectively showing Shubert that his long track record of unbiblical methods and ways resulting in various unbiblical teachings and practices, all derived from various aspects of selfishness, including egocentricism, has resulted in him not coming to have the Biblical Understanding of what is to now, Eschatologically take place in the present re-fulfilment of Rev 5, as expounded upon in this pivotal Rev 5 & 10 exposition. Shubert has indeed long missed the boat and has by now objectively been demonstrated to have suffered, as with similarly failing, SDA leaders, the judgement of Isa 29:9-13. But when one is, as in this dream, depicted to be the “criminal of criminals” (cf. Gen 10:25), that just cannot rationally be anything to ‘stubbornly be indifferent/obliviously’ about as Shubert self-blindingly prefers to be. (=Acts 7:57 indeed resorting to this same, patent “goonish”: ‘refuse to engage, but ignore and just repeat more loudly/emphatically’ tactic).
As I summarily had said to Shubert here, with this dream, corrobated by Shubert’s latest actions and non-answers, proving to be forwardly-lookingly prophetically significant, (indeed just like God revealed the future course of people who inceptive had gone off course, which they indeed followed to a “t”), God was through this most objectively showing Shubert that his long track record of unbiblical methods and ways resulting in various unbiblical teachings and practices, all derived from various aspects of selfishness, including egocentricism, has resulted in him not coming to have the Biblical Understanding of what is to now, Eschatologically take place in the present re-fulfilment of Rev 5, as expounded upon in this pivotal Rev 5 & 10 exposition. Shubert has indeed long missed the boat and has by now objectively been demonstrated to have suffered, as with similarly failing, SDA leaders, the judgement of Isa 29:9-13. But when one is, as in this dream, depicted to be the “criminal of criminals” (cf. Gen 10:25), that just cannot rationally be anything to ‘stubbornly be indifferent/obliviously’ about as Shubert self-blindingly prefers to be. (=Acts 7:57 indeed resorting to this same, patent “goonish”: ‘refuse to engage, but ignore and just repeat more loudly/emphatically’ tactic).
Eugene Shubert’s keeps pompously railing that ‘Ernie Knoll is under some wrathful, deluding judgement of God’ but his won factually and experiential track record, as seen here above, actually point to him being under such a “W.O.E.”.
Shubert’s “End of the 2300 days” Experience (EW 56.1)
Shubert’s “End of the 2300 days” Experience (EW 56.1)
Well in the light of all of the above-related heresy and divine-disapproval issues which have been manifested in the teachings, claims and actions/practices of Eugene Shubert, it was not at all difficult to readily discern and see, as done and discussed starting here and here, that when he claimed to have been given a vision of ‘being taken to heaven and worshipping God there’, that this surely was the, indeed “Angel of Light”-akin SDA deception that Satan does to variously mislead SDA’s to do false endtime work....And confirmingly most telling for Shubert, this all takes place in the context of “the End of the 2300 days” which the utterly spiritually dwarfed, base-minded Shubert further mindlessly has no wit nor qualm to claim, (indeed in yet another “Omega Apostasy” waymark teaching (e.g., here) rejection by him), that ‘the 2300 days were not fulfilled on October 22, 1844.’ (See starting in my responding here and also this Biblical further support here.). Not insignificantly at all, that revelation...from Satan... to Shubert is, as he relates in here, what “foundationally” (=Luke 6:49) propelled him starting in ca. 1986 into his gradually increasing Omega-heresy building up!
Steve Starman’s (First) Dream
In, what I’ve seen were pertinently related discussions with Eugene Shubert, he pointed me to a poster on his forum, namely Steve Starman, who has claimed to have had a genuine prophetic dream. See, and do first read it through, starting here. After an indepth analysis of it, I have come to see that it indeed is inspired, however I am, through more indepth exegetical interpretation, seeing a secondary, wider, interpretation/application for it, and one that pointedly deals with God’s “prolonged time” plans in regards to His grand, temporal, Church Triumphant (=Zion) plans, as it has been presented in sections through this Theological View blog. So, as with my applicable interpretation for Shubert’s dream above, (in fact/indeed as with all analyzed SDA prophetic claims examined in this blog post), I’ll be presenting that secondary view here for Starman’s prophetic dream. (As for Shubert’s Dream above, see any further discussion of Starman’s dream starting here.)
It is also significant to keep in mind, and a study of end time prophecies (i.e., e.g, Christ’s Olivet Discourse, Revelation), that, as it was also the case in my (secondary) interpretation of Shubert’s dream that a primary/local interpretation/application typically is fulfilled in less detail than a secondary and/or subsequent/eschatological application. So while Shubert and Starman have seen a fulfillement involving themselves in relation to Eugene’s prophetic discoveries and Starman’s finding, “investigating” and sharing of them, it can be seen that these are, application/fulfillement merely in general/broad/partial terms/points. But, as Shubert had, probably surprisedly asked in my secondary interpretation of dream where, indeed, ‘virtually every symbol/imagery given in it had a pointed, significant and pivotal meaning’, the same has, quite naturally/genuinely occurred in this Secondary interpretation of Starman’s dream.
Dream Contextualizing Background
First of all, it is indeed most significant, as consistently seen in the Bible* and SOP (e.g., CET 134.1), and as I have personally repeatedly experienced, that the particular circumstances leading up to a Divine Dream or Vision are quite important in properly understanding what the dream is all about. While there may then be seen a direct response to what had been pondered, many times that link is not so explicitly evident, and it is only upon later understandings that it is seen how God did still pointedly address a particular situation then, but then, only according to His higher knowledge and wisdom which the receiver of the dream or vision would then not be at all aware of. (I see that this is what occurred in my first vision where I immediately thought after that God had actually not, at least, “head-on”/clearly, answered what I was specifically consumedly burdened with then, (even frankly/candidly, upsetly/frustratedly thinking then that ‘God had just wasted a, (self-evident), “vision [of-the-night]” revelation then’), but in retrospect now, I do see how He did inclusively addressed that situation, but as what I was shown was much more significant, it indeed was not necessary to explicitly address those smaller issues. Also, as stated in James 1:5, God will answer a prayer for more wisdom, and, evidently, if He sees it necessary, in a dream or vision.
* E.g. -In the popular prophecy of Dan 2, Dan 2:29 seems to be saying that Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar was lying in his bed pondering what would happen in the future, most likely in relation to his kingdom and it enduring on after him when God gave him that dream. It probably was that direct link of the dream’s content to what he had been thinking, that left Nebuchadnezzar with the persisting impression that though he had forgotten the dream (evidently: ‘right upon when it had ended in the middle of the night and he couldn’t sleep anymore’ (Dan 2:1)), it had been a significant dream and manifestly ‘from the gods’.
* E.g. -In the popular prophecy of Dan 2, Dan 2:29 seems to be saying that Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar was lying in his bed pondering what would happen in the future, most likely in relation to his kingdom and it enduring on after him when God gave him that dream. It probably was that direct link of the dream’s content to what he had been thinking, that left Nebuchadnezzar with the persisting impression that though he had forgotten the dream (evidently: ‘right upon when it had ended in the middle of the night and he couldn’t sleep anymore’ (Dan 2:1)), it had been a significant dream and manifestly ‘from the gods’.
- In Dan 9, the prophet Daniel was struggling to understand the prior prophecy of Jeremiah’s 70 Years (Jer 25:1-11) -(which was evidently preserved on scrolls (cf. Jer 36:1-2, 20-23, 27-28), since it also pertained to an appointed time in the (near) future cf. Hab 2:2-3) which Daniel knew (as per Jer 30) were about to end then (Dan 9:2), and began fasting and praying to obtain that wisdom (Dan 9:3-4ff), and the angel Gabriel was dispatched to go and give him the answer (Dan 9:20-23) in the Great Seventy Week Prophecy (Dan 9:24-27).
- In Judges 6, Israel was concerned about the Midianites when God sent them a prophet to encourage them (Judges 6:7-10ff)
-The vision of the book of Revelation was probably given to John with him, -being quite aged and clearly being miraculously protected by God from being martyred by the Romans, having prominently in mind the statement of Jesus in John 21:22-23 and thinking that ‘maybe Jesus did want him to remain alive until He returned’ as many had assumed/interpreted that statement to mean.
-The vision of the book of Revelation was probably given to John with him, -being quite aged and clearly being miraculously protected by God from being martyred by the Romans, having prominently in mind the statement of Jesus in John 21:22-23 and thinking that ‘maybe Jesus did want him to remain alive until He returned’ as many had assumed/interpreted that statement to mean.
So with Steve Starman’s dream being given as he was greatly distressed about understanding Daniel 11, and not getting a proper answer from SDA publications, I have by now concretely seen how that prophecy is indeed crucial to the proper understanding of his dream. As I have discussed in this post, the prophecy of Dan 11 currently has a present application in a Church Civil War revolving on the Shaking of the Church and then the re-establishment of God’s full (=12-tribe) Israel, led by the actions of the King of the North (= Israel’s northern 11 tribes). This development fulfills the Rev 7:4-8 Sealing Time of the 144,000 events and culminates in God establishing His Triumphant, temporal Zion during, and for this presently started, prolonged time period. I am also finding it significant that Starman “decided”, ( I rather see it as “was impressed”) to read the Christ’s Object Lessons chapter “The Lord’s Vineyard” (pp. 284-306) as that chapter deals with God’s dealing with a stubborn and unrepentant People, then the Jewish Nation, but typologically applicably today, the SDA Church. That chapter provides a most pertinent background for the secondary interpretation of his dream.
Dream Content Interpretation
Country Road
And now the Dream itself. The meaning involved in driving along a “beautiful, winding country road” can be understood in contrast with the city alternative. The city road is typical straight, and thus more direct, not wasting time/miles to get you to your destination. Yet, then peacefulness as well as more pleasant scenery of the country road usually offset the fact that it indeed is a circuitous route, which typically involves lower speeds, particularly as one is typically preferring to enjoy the scenery. So while a winding country road will (eventually) get you to your destination, when compared with a city street, it is not the most efficient way to travel. Indeed if/when one is in a rush to get to a destination, they will much more prefer to take a city route than going through the country. So here it can be foundationally seen that ‘driving one a pleasant, beautiful and peaceful’ path was involved, but it also was one which comparatively was not as efficient. Its real worthwhileness was more in the scenery than its efficiency. Furthermore, when night falls, a country road becomes much more hazardous than a city street due mainly to improper, if not completely absent lighting. Only the lighting that a travelling vehicle can self-provide is usually entirely relied upon for light. So that country road is best for day-time/light travel, whereas the city thru street is fitted out for both.
The Country Setting
To also make a further interpretation here, based on what has been seen to be fully involved here, the country setting for that travelling is naturally opposed to a city setting here. And here it can be seen the Inspired counsel given in the SOP in regards to the fundamental differencing which SDA should be making between the country and the city. SDA have been counselled to move out of the cities and live in the country, yet still interact with cities as evangelistic/missions outreach outposts. So the country setting here can also be understood as this private residence realm for SDA’s, as compared to its target outreach realm of the city. So what is to unfold in that country setting, focuses here more on internal/private affairs of the SDA Church more than its outreach/public duties. And that SOP counselling for “Country Living” is actually not in order to hide (i.e., from persecutions), for this, particularly in our advanced day and technological age, completely futile (as a person with simply Google Earth can easily pinpoint where someone is living anywhere on this globe, let alone the capability and reach of military/para-military agency), but actually in order to be able to sustainedly set up independent and “off-the-grid” living so that “natural” or imposed restrictions on basic life sustenance can be overcome.
In general, the driving along a winding country road, personally reminds me of the spiritually involved time in April 1997, related here, when, while driving in the backroads of Tennessee, I was then seriously pondering my desired ministry efforts and wondering how I can better/more effectively, and economically accomplish it, all due to the just encountered evident failure of my earlierly attempted efforts, as related in the wider context of that statement. At that driving time, I was, in really a consoling endeavor, en route to Southern Adventist University (SAU) in Collegedale, TN, being then attractively quite “proudly smitten” by the “beauty” of achieved SDA Institutions, (indeed to the point of not minding taking this quasi-detour to visit what I was considering as a worthwhile destination path). To me this all relates to my secondary view of this dream because, generally stated here, that really was the inceptive genesis of my present, now much more extensive Christian ministry work. For I then realized that if I ever was going to efficiently do the ministry work that I was increasingly be drawn to, I would need to take much more formal measures. And indeed, with a month, greatly inspired by my SAU visitations then, within one month I had decided to formally study for the ministry. Interestingly enough, though I always knew that I would involve myself solely in Evangelistic work (as I saw e.g., Kenneth Cox solely doing), and as I was moreover planning to purposely, non-typically do this in a non-SDA setting (i.e., holding evangelistic meetings in an SDA Church), but in a more neutral, public setting, I always saw it as quite ‘inefficient’ to have to enroll in a Pastoral Ministry track while at Andrews to reach that goal. And as related in my bio post, I repeatedly tried to get out of it by either focusing squarely on my ministry goals or seeking a shorter study track in an SDA Evangelism field school instead. So in those key details I personally see how the overall “inefficiency” of a country road here, however beautiful and peaceful as it was, (as the actual (rural) setting of SDA colleges, namely Andrews University is, it was still then to me a quite circuitous and thus (time) wasteful road for me to take in order to reach my end goal. And what compoundedly complicated things for me then was an initial, typical SDA belief, that time was running out, and the end would come before I could do this undone ministry and reach with the Truth the manifestly unreached field that I was pointedly targeting.
And as also involved with the country setting of that country road, as stated above, for indeed the same fundamental reasons why SDA universities were counselled to be located in the country as much as possible, the focus here all revolves around proper personal self-development, and more generally, the learning and development of sustainable living skills, the aim here is indeed “pastoral” vs. outreach/evangelistic/mission.
The Sunblocking Trees
Now, and reading my posted accounts in this bio post , particularly on my main experiences while at Andrews, and shortly prior to that time, will be contextualizing helpful here, but first of all, having already independently understood that “trees” (see in here in its entry on the symbol of “trees”) are symbolic of (small/supporting) ministries in a religious/spiritual context, but small businesses (of/in umbrella industries) in an also applicable temporal context, I can see in my ministry pursuance experience the fulfilment, and meaning, from Starman’s dream of ‘magnificent green tree lining the country road resulting in shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals’. While that would seem to be a pleasant development, I have personally noticed from literal personal driving experience when driving through such a country road that this can be quite annoying if you are actually wanting to fully enjoy that sunlight. In other words, those trees are actually blocking the sunlight from illuminating that road and its traveller, even to the point of causing quite noticeable, contrasting spots, even segments of darkness on that road, indeed even in the middle of the day. Apply the valid symbolic meaning that a “tree” represents a ministry in a religious realm, and more pointedly here, an SDA ministry, and with the “sun (=star)” (See also in that ‘symbols’ post’s entry) being symbolic, also in a religious realm, of “righteousness”, then it can be seen that those green trees, who moreover are manifestly purely decorative, thus fruitless trees, are: ‘magnificent SDA ministries which line a country road, but, despite them seeming to make the scenery beautiful, are really, substantively, serving to block the sunlight from shining upon that road. As I relate in my bio post, I had a similar detrimental experience with SDA ministries when seeking to receive assistance from to do the outreach ministry that I was planning. Given that fact that I was actually going to merely be promoting their ministries and publications, as well as the SDA Church’s as a whole, their consistent, faithless and base, ‘we have no money to help you in that effort’ response was inherently not the “right thing” (=righteousness) to do. If/Since their ministries would be greatly aided by this effective targeted promoting of it, to even a new/unreached Christian audience, then it was entirely in each of their interest to contribute something towards that, essentially, “advertising”. But they all turned me away for spiritually “wrong” reasons.
Along the way of this ‘further travelling’ while still on the “country road” of self-development at Andrews, I was still being consistently detrimentally affected by the decision of these ministries because I then had to, increasingly alone as I irrationally and “unrighteously” continued to get less and less support for my still “SDA Ministries and Publication” advertising efforts, and it is during these times, as I was then still on that “country road” which was actually, increasingly not peaceful to me, (with indeed that period being one of the most trying times of my life up to then, and to a point, even to this day, taking into consideration that, as compared to my situation today, I was then relatively completely in the dark as to God’s will and plan for my life, and was then entirely moving on in faith, going by the directions of ‘doing what was right’), because I had not deferentially accepted the various grossly base and wrong response and obstacles that were strewn along my path by those various people in Church authority and leadership. So I am seeing here a parallel but different unfolding of Starman’s dream in my case, in the sense that, while I did indeed previously (i.e., 1997ff) travel that (SDA) country road, it was instead a non-peaceful experience for me. Yet perhaps the actual peaceful, or “appeasing” thing, then was in knowing, and as it was then repeatedly confirmed in Divine signs and responses, that I was on the right track.
The Intersecting Long Road/Driveway
And so for me, a literal off-the-main-road excursion, as involved in Starman’s dream, occurred with the fact that (as also related in my bio-post -see “Acquiescing the Little Scroll” section), that I had been for a while pondering what the Dan 11 prophecy meant. I had cursorily read the leading SDA “Historicist and then Final Events” interpretations then and had decided to deferentially go by what was being said there, but I increasingly knew that something more precise was probably involved in it in conjunction with my then main studies on the 70 Weeks. So as depicted in Starman’s dream, I see it that my repeated casual readings in, and ponderings upon, Dan 11 for a period of about 5 months during that time was those repeated excursionary drivings by Starman in his dream to view the exterior of the intriguing building off that main road. Yet like Starman, after just, effectively, looking at the “exteriors” of Dan 11, indeed deliberately, but spuriously and indeed not rightly, putting off an indepth study of it given that my work was Biblical Research and I had moreover seen that certain elements in Dan 11 were probably key to my expositions on the 70 Weeks, (all just like Starman was an investigative journalist, who has certain constitutionally protected rights to, at least make a decided effort to investigate even government activities, (which in this case would be the ‘investigative journalist Starman’ getting out of his car and knocking on the front doors of that building to ask questions about what was going on in it)), and given the fact that I then believed that it could only have a “single” interpretations which I believed was according to the one typically advanced by SDA’s, (though I was then believing that those interpretations could probably be more precisely done, as it had come to be the case with my original studies on the 70 Weeks), I didn’t then bother to further probe that issue, but just “got back on my main road and travelled on”. Indeed, as the “long driveway/street” detail involved, I awarely considered the in depth study of Dan 11 to first require a long study road, and thus, though I drove by the “intersection” several times then with turning onto it to go and study that ‘Dan 11 building’
However, one day in September of 1999, I put off my basely selfish, and thus spurious excuses and delved into the deeper study of Daniel 11, indeed then producing the first wave of original translation of that chapter posted in this post. I effectively then came to “enter” that mysterious building, and since then, given the many revolutionary things that I discovered in that study which came to confirm many prophetic things which I had observed, studied and experienced then, and then steadily increasingly so afterwards as the prophecy and its clear SDA Church Civil War & Temporal Zion establishment theme application continued to develop, I myself have remained within that building, not bothering then to, quite literally, not resume my country road travel as I had planned up to then (i.e., resuming my postponed “Pastoral Ministry/Theology) studies at Andrews), and have been pursuing these various, wide/far-reaching and multi-faceted (=4-Faced, 4 Living Creatures) Biblical and Scientific studies, and seeing that, when I would get back on that course to reach my partial destination then, I would end up, as shown in Starman’s dream, in a completely different, yet memorable/recognizable place. (Much more on this revelatory detail later.)
An interesting related development for me occurred when I later, largely based on what I had by then seen in my more indepth studies of Daniel 11, decided to leave the Andrews Campus and literally “head home”, to my early teenage home, which my parents still owned, while themselves living in Florida, and continuing my ministry research and work from there. So in a way, that Daniel 11 building for me came to be my relocated ministry HQ of my parent’s house, and, though it is a two-storey house, I strikingly only fully occupy one of its storey’s, with the other (basement) one being virtually empty. My ministries, indeed, “offices” are all on that top floor. (This single-floor establishment/setup is actually most efficient for me in regards to getting my various ministry related task efficiently done) So I here also see how that detail in Starman’s dream seamlessly applies here.
Building’s Security and Secrecy
Now, with an interpretive understanding here that the operations inside that building revolved around Dan 11, then it can be self-evidently seen that any degree of security and secrecy involved in concealing either its study or the results of those studies would indeed (surfacely) strike someone as “not quite right”. Those actions are pointedly what would “set that building/operation apart from others”, i.e., other SDA ministries or individuals studying Dan 11, because the would be forthcoming with fully presenting and explaining their findings. However, as seen in its blog post here, I have, and that most deliberately, only partially posted what I have studied and understood about Dan 11, and even despite the increasing circumstance I have seen, and still seeing how it is being fulfilled in/with, presently, the SDA Church today, and what its end final fulfilment will fully entail. Nonetheless, by now, if one collates all of the Dan 11 allusions and statements made in this entire blog, they’ll have a much better idea of that full interpretation, but that is deliberately not done on its dedicated post where such issues are merely introduced and/or succinctly commented on. So a sense of ‘an inordinate amount of secrecy and security’ here would revolve around the fact that despite having made these studies public and more then less fully decipherable, this is still being done in a circuitous and veiled manner. So I am sure that all of this has been a “stumbling” block for many, but they thus self-demonstrate/validate that they should not be admitted into that building.
The Prophetic Office-Styled Building
And getting right to a wider prophetic point that I am seeing fully applies here, I have since seen that this mysterious, large office-styled, suspected, (earthly-speaking), “corporate and/or government” building in Starman’s dream is the same one as the “important building” shown to EGW in 1SM 109.2ff. As the theme of that vision is, the ‘importance of receiving the Holy Spirit’ as having that spiritual “sense” is what authorizes/permits one to enter that building, then, by inherent/sequitur circumstances here, any “whistleblower” here would have to be someone who has had some tangible access within that building, and are also capable of taking something tangibly out of it, -something which they claim is highly emblematically of “what is really going on in that building”. It is significant to point out about a “whistleblower” that they are not defaultly right just because are blowing a whistle. While it is true that they usually right on track in what they had drawn attention to, the just fact still remains that their claims need to be objectively, competently, judiciously evaluated. So a “whistleblower” coming out of this (office) building would first have to have their claims properly investigated before they are considered to be correct and further necessary action take place.
Building’s ‘Governmental Research’ Operations
What is now interesting to see is that, my delving into Dan 11 came to producingly result in the establishment of 4 major, interrelated ministries, which, as stated above, are tangibly related to the temporal purposes of the Bible’s Four Living Creatures. And, as per the certain “government building or research facility feel” felt and mentioned by Starman in his dream, these four, effectively “departments”, presently all are at their research (even more than development) stage, but are all contributive to an umbrella, most necessary, “New Country entity”. Succinctly said here these involve:
(1) a Biblical Research Institute (Ox);
(2) a socio-economic Humanitarian works ministry and mission (Man);
(3) a New Country Project (Lion); and
(4) and an innovative, Industrial Technological Endeavor (Eagle).
The “Whistle-Blower”[s]
Over the years of variously presenting those 4 interrelated projects, all inherently within the context of my Daniel 11 prophetic understandings, I have repeatedly seen that “whistleblower” manifestation, most of which are objectively observable online (e.g., my discussions on SDA Forums (see here), the commenting on my blog, etc.,) where many people have to some depth, effectively entered this building, but, and especially when the saw the overarching SDA Civil War main/chief/firstmost operational theme (which is actually all related to the ‘Shaking of the SDA Church’ fulfilment, which will indeed not be a pleasant theme, but a warring/militaristic one as depicted in the Bible (Ezek 9) and SOP (EW 269-272ff)), then they have qualmingly found an excuse to not pursue further participation and most have instead decided to act like “whistle blower”. (An example which may be “familiar” in part to those discussing in the Steve Starman’s Dream thread (see from here) is the baseless, tunnel-visioned (i.e., not considering all of the Biblical facts involved), and thus utterly spurious (and actually, as typical with her, as seen by her comments elsewhere, ‘shrillingly hysterical’ [as if that made a difference as to what the truth of a matter was]) dissuading comments of Ulrike/Ulicia Unruh (usual username: “dedication”) made in a Yahoo Group discussion starting here in regards to my NJK Project and a chief tenet of it that Capitalism is not Biblical and in opposition to God Full Sabbath (see here) and thus the main part of the Fuller Mark of the Beast.
The Role of the Investigative Journalist
Yet, with the personated Starman-character here, (which representative of those who are seeking to know about and/or more the various ‘Daniel 11 projects” being done in that governmental/research building), being an investigative journalist, their dutiful responsibility when encountering a whistleblower, is to properly investigate those claims and present/publish a facts-based report on those findings.
Continued Drive (To an Unknown Home)
Starman then relates that after having viewed the building from the outside he then resumed his drive home along that country road, but then arrived at a home which he did not recognize then or now. It is interesting that he still considered it to be his home. It is at the point in the dream where the investigative character Steve resumes his journey home (from work) after having merely looked at the exteriors of that building that I see the applications up to then to my own early ministry work experience come to a dividing end, because, for one thing, I actually entered that building (=Dan 11) since September 1999 and really had never ‘continued driving on home’ (i.e., driving past that intersection) prior to that. And it was not until I had properly done the “work” of ascertaining. through in depth study, what Dan 11 was pointing to that I literally decided to “drive home’ moving back to my early teenage home mentioned above in February 2000 where I’ve been since.
Arrival and Stay at Unknown Home)
The imagery from the mention of Starman going to an unrecognized home yet still feeling at home immediately drew my attention to EGW mentioning something similar in a dream in 11MR 361.1-2a on her “Balls of Fire” vision. As I discuss above in my testing of James Tierney and his ‘9/11 Four Winds Holding’ vision, I see that that SOP Balls of Fire vision had a (warning) fulfilment in the 9/11 Events. As variously emphasized by the relating Angel in that vision of EGW, the main reason why God was going to execute (or have done) those judgment was because of the way the rich of the earth had oppressed and/or neglected the poor. (=Isa 29:19-24; cf. 9T 11.4)
Now this all ties up neatly with my situation in that my various 4 Major plans derived which are incorporated in the Dan 11 delineation of events leading to the Triumphant reestablishment of God’s full Israel, all chiefly involve doing a neglected work towards the various poor, suffering, and needlessly dying of the world. And given the major Capitalistic tide of opposition against the needed wealth-sharing vs. wealth-competing that such an endeavor requires, it is almost certain that this will at some point result in some degree of adversarial confrontation. In fact, as presented here, I am exegetically/prophetically seeing that this will fully involve the Battle against the (also Capitalistic) Mark of the Beast Camp, which, as seen today in the many pro-capitalistic reactions against my project, will, in that “full” extent, tacitly or knowingly include SDA’s. (= LDE 180.6)
As I recounted above in the Tierney 9/11 comments, when I witnessed Live the Second Plane Strike on 9/11, I immediately became worried about all of the plans which I had been working on since I saw then that, depending on the degree of the U.S. military response, which, as shown in that section above, could have been nuclear, the world and future could be most drastically changed even that very day, indeed much, much more than it actually has since 9/11. Unlike EGW in her vision on that effectuated type of Divine judgement, I did not have an explicit assuring that “Nothing shall harm you”, but I had an implictly knowledge that an All Powerful God surely would not have led me this far, into these greater, major plans, only to have this 9/11 event defeat everything. But, as God had then revealed to/through James Tierney, He had immediately acted (in fact, been acting all along), to have this wind held back.
So the key thing to keep in mind at this point here is how this “unknown home” arrival has an allusive relation to the EGW’s Balls of Fire judgement vision, and how this all is in relation to how the rich and powerful of the world have treated the poor/needy and weak. And also that, any endeavor to satisfactorily overturn things here will result in some degree of tangible confrontation.
A great example of this has presently (i.e., 2009ff) been seen in the U.S. in the way that Republicans have been vehemently opposing the quasi-socialistic efforts of the Barack Obama presidency-led Democrat party. It has literally been a cut throat Political War. In my comments on a possible 9/11 scenario in this note below, I had said in that context, “God help the world if/when a Godless person become the U.S. President”, well the converse is actually also true because the political “Right Wing” (a.k.a. ‘Religious Right’) of America, who are typically indifferently staunch Capitalist, most clamoring for a return to Laissez-Faire Capitalism, are also ruthless in the defense of their Economic ideology and would most likely have no qualms about using Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) to completely eliminate a perceive ‘threat to their “way of life”’. Indeed since ‘the higher the demand on a resource the higher is its cost’, they’ll surely pre-emptively see that any endeavor to suddenly and significantly improve the living standard of the poor of the world, not to mention adding 65,000,000+ new live births per year to the global community by the NJK Project’s planned life-rescuing of otherwise would be aborted infants, (see here), as surely a “clear and present/coming) detriment to their economy and so, justifying it as a life-threatening defence, will likely not hesitate to take illegal (for Capitalism it currently is not a written Law nor is Socialism formally outlawed) or inherently unlawful actions [as they variously already have and are] to prevent this Project from ever been established and functional. Not the least of which would be the use of military force to, e.g., enforce a law or Security Council resolution preventing the even non-territorial establishment of Floating Cities in International Waters. (Yet, as the planned NJK Floating Cities will technically be Sea-going Vessels, for such a law to ever be lawful, it would have to bar the free transit, even stoppage of all sea-going vessels, or would have to be pointedly, discriminatorily targeted at the NJK itself.)
All this to say, and to keep in mind in the interpretation of Starman’s dream that the issue of the unlawful and unjustified use of military force and even WMD’s is a likely one that the NJK Project has to be able to formidably protect against and also effectively deter. And in the current stage of its Research Plannings, it indeed has drafted a technically-feasible, militaristically-advantageous and economically-viable, non-Nuclear, non-indiscriminate and non-mass-destructing deterring offensive and defending (smart-est) weapons system (colloquially and technically called the K.O.A.B [coll: “King of All Bomb” (cf. MOAB and FOAB) and tech: “Kinetic Orbital Ardent Bomb/ard”) [=a man-made|created meteor/meteorite (e.g., the Feb. 2013 Russia Meteor (video)] which would protect against any attempt physical assault against the NJK’s establishments. Normatively, a “country’s” weapons development is cloaked in complete secrecy, up to, at times, for warning reasons, the completion of Feasibility, Research and some form of Development stages, but with the NJK’s KOAB system being seen to technically, even quite literalistically, be and involve, a temporal/man-made aspect of the God’s “Balls of Fire” warring implement as revealed in the SOP, an implement whose destructive fiery effect is said to ‘impossible to check’ (LDE 24.3ff), which for the NJK’s KOAB system, as intrinsically involved in that naturally globally-deployed system (i.e., as the Defense system of each of the NJK’s Floating Cities), will indeed be the inherent and performant case, and even despite the planned advanced warning and clear target indicator (for the destruction of key building, facilities, infrastructure, military “hardware” and systems is actually more efficient in defeating a threat than the killing of even hostile people, and/or leading individual), and as this weapon system will be a conventional military system (i.e., non-Nuclear or WMD [i.e., “Mass” = indiscriminate property and/or people]), then the, effectively here, pre-release of this planned, main military system of the NJK will not adversely affect it. In fact, if other countries of the world would exchange its WMD systems for the overall NJK’s KOAB system, -a system which will actually be able to globally deliver its targeted potent payload within a few minutes, the world would be a much better, secure, safer and peaceful place.
So as it is clearly seen here, the NJK Project current research and planning involve, at a military level, something that can be misconstrued as WMD’s which are either Biological, Chemical, Nuclear or Radiological Weapons. And that all ties in, and leads to, the claim of that Whistle-Blower in Starman’s dream.
Judging the Claim of Whistle-Blower
As it was begun to be discussed earlier, there have been many explicit, (mostly hysterical), claims by several/certain individuals who have “looked into” the NJK Project’s plans of something “ominous” being planned and worked on in that building, more over in a stated Dan 11 “warring” context. Indeed such claims has variously been made against each of the 4 major research departments which I am presently involved in. The fact of the matter is that if each and any of those common and typical insinuative WMD claims were duly, properly and objectively “investigated” they would all be shown to be baseless and false. Tellingly enough, the lack of actual evidence is seen in the evidence that the Whistle-Blower had brought forth in those radiation or biohazard protective body suits, for, with these suit divorced from the context in which they were being used, is not proof that anything “evil” was being done in that building. In fact, Disease control agencies such as the U.S. Center for Disease Control (CDC) make copious usage of these suits in their health protecting work which includes growing various strains of virus in order to be able to develop an antidote for it in advance. So it may have actually been such a stylistically identical type of protective body suit which was brought forth by that whistle-blower as “evidence” against the activity of that ‘governmental and/or research facility’ and it was assumed to be that used in the development of Nuclear Weapons as highly-enriched (thus highly radio-active) nuclear material is then used and handled. However all of the activities being research in that building (=the NJK’s present planning Research “offices”), are all being intended for life-aiding and benefiting usage. And, as stated above, even its planned KOAB military defense system is itself also a much better weapon than its non-conventional WMD counterpart(s).
And as a further case in point that what that “whistle-blower” had brought forth as evidence was no evidence at all, If “experts” (which is representative of Bible Scholars) had examined that protective body suit, they would have objectively not been able to (conclusively, if at all) claim that it is for Nuclear or Biohazard weapons. And for any claim of the sort to be made upon an ‘expert examination’, as understood, there would need to be some residual/trace substance on the suit of what was being handled. But clearly, since even the smallest particle of any radioactive or biological element is most fatally toxic, there was none on the suit being evidently freely and openly handled by both the whistle-blower and Starman in the dream, with the suit being even left at Starman’s house. So, at best, only a biased inference as to what that protective suit was being used for could be insinuatively made here. And, as self-demonstrable, as just stated here, even the “understood” notion that ‘“experts” would figure it all out’ is a canard in itself as the suit evidence in and by itself was not actually indicative of anything ominous as suspected and believed. The only way to obtain concrete evidence would be for the investigative journalist here to seek to set up an interview with the workers in that building, and even inside the building itself, but no mention of that quite possible investigative step was even stated to have been considered. So really the proper steps to finding the truth on a matter were not duly taken/followed then, but people here just presumed to go by assumptions.
The reliability and credibility of the whistle-blower is also highly suspect because, as an evident person who has access inside the building, if they could have accessed and sneaked a whole body suit out of the building, then they surely could have either brought out better substantial and/or testimonial “evidence”. It seems sequitur to me that by having either direct or indirect access to a body suit, which in the latter case would implicate an accomplice which has direct access to that suit, which in turns involves direct access, and/or knowledge of, the actual material being handled, then just bringing out an actually, conclusivity-wise, ambiguous (i.e., either way), suit and letting other people in comparative complete darkness, effectively jump to their own subjective conclusions, instead of also presenting at least better and explicitly stated, vs. the oddly utilized silence (as if stating known/observed information would be more damning than having sneaked out a suit, -which if such rigid security is being used in that building, would be immediately noticed, and with also security camera likely to be found all over the insides of that “highly-secured” building, it would readily be seen who had stolen that suit, (unless the workers inside were entirely trusted, which then would inherently surely/pointedly defeat a claim of “evil secrecy” as such a monitoring protection would be the first measure used to assure that no leaks to the outside public occurred, )), then all of these inconsistent/incongruent factors to a truthful denunciation make it is self-manifest that that whistle-blower actually had ulterior, subversive and dishonest motives and intentions here. I.e., at worst, trying to scare people away from what it knows is not at all the malevolent intention of that building’s organization, or at “best”, a preferential ‘jumping to uninformed and false conclusion’ and now trying to get others to similarly do the same in order to mobbingly raise up an opposition to that building’s activity which it wants/prefers to summarily deem to be evil.
Tellingly enough of fulfilled application in my own experience, as seen in my many discussions on the NJK Project, jumping to preferred and/or indifferently uniformed conclusions has been the common type of attempted objection done by various people, particularly those balking at its Biblical substantiation. I.e., they have clearly seen that its ministry plans are Biblical, and even emphasized in the SOP, but they then spuriously object to the methods and measures being used to accomplish those ministry goals, namely, a new Church (re-)organization, a country establishment, a thorough Biblical Research Institute, a Biblical Socialistic socio-economy, and also its various and major industrial system and plans. Again, a typical and emblematic example of this is “Ulrike/Ulicia Unruh/“dedication”’s objections to my NJK Project and its Biblical stance against Capitalism stated, (and refuted by me), in this discussion (repost) (end of page 63ff), and then her many manipulative guileful, and legally libellous and slanderous, mindless/spurious/hysterical statements in the above-also-cited December 2011 Yahoo Group discussion, with, as a prime example her mal-construingly disparaging insinuative “occupy protest” claim here, (see my actual and full statement starting here), [-by the way Jesus is the one who taught (Biblical “liberation theology” e.g., Matt 11:28-30; Luke 18:18-27] where she mal-states, i.e., without any or proper contextualization that “I speak against Capitalism” without bothering to give the blog post link where this is done, so it can be objectively verified and the supporting Biblical and SOP statements against it be seen. Indeed, just as self-evidently deceptively being done by the whistle-blower in the dream.[27]
An Alternative Ending Scenario
The arrival of Starman to ‘a then and now unrecognized home’ (yet him still feeling/being at home), involves, as in EGW’s “Balls of Fire” dream, being in the midst of, and seeing, an unexpected scenario for Final Events. The Balls of Fire motif is one which is indeed startling to SDA’s as is seen in the fact that it is not typically discussed during Final Events talks (i.e., as is the Sunday Law, The Mark of the Beat, the Great Time of Trouble, or even when discussing the 7 Last Plagues). However it is mentioned in revelation as the ‘great hailstones that falls (Rev 8:7; 11:19; 16:21), -hailstones which match the ones which had fallen on Egypt and “ruined” [hint: the SOP’s “National Ruin”] their economy (Exod 9:18-35), (actually for only those who did not heed God’s avertingly, warning instructions (Exod 9:18-21). This hail was quite literally “Balls of Fire” as they did contain flashing fire within them (Exod 9:24). And as seen in Job 38:22-23, this hail serves as God’s WMD’s for times of great battle and distress (i.e., Times of Trouble).
So it can be seen that God was here shifting to an obscure quasi-alternative scenario of Final Events (=new home), and would be using the hail to enter into economic judgement (as emphasized in EGW’s Balls of Fire vision) with the leading strongholds of the world. That new course actually marks of a new beginning for while this hailstone judgement can punctuate Final Events, as it does by occurring in the Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:19) and Seventh Plague (Rev 16:21), it is explicitly alluded to as “Balls of Fire” only at the start of the Seven Trumpets (Rev 8:7) which are a series of Military Conquest of God’s Church which can have an Eschatological re-fulfilment, as indeed transpiring today. (See starting in this ‘Primer - Part 1’ blog post for more on this Eschatological re-fulfilment).
So that portion of the dream is representative of genuinely investigative people like Starman (vs. people/SDA’s who have a traditionalist approach to Biblical Truth which believes that only what has always been taught circularly must be the truth instead of leading the Bible be that final arbitrator of Truth) almost unknowingly to them finding themselves in a new home, but still feeling/being at home, (just like in Eugene Shubert’s dream, he imperceptibly found himself out of that Limo-Car (= the spurious SDA Church Militant Organization) and standing next to the White Horse). That new home was, as in EGW’s dream, literally a shelter right in the midst of the storm (cf. Mar 270.4), for she was right in the midst of the city being destroyed by the falling Balls of Fire, and God was indeed then releasing His WMD arsenal which then implies that this was all during a time of Trouble, which was also most likely at the start of the Little Time of Trouble when the Trumpets then will begin to sound again. (Rev 8:7ff). So the investigative journalist character spiritually found himself to be in a new home because he had not been, as typical with SDA’s, studying that quasi-alternative Final Events scenario of God involving the use of Balls of Fire.
In a private communication with Eugene Shubert, I had indicated to him my “Balls of Fire” understanding related to innovation which I am working on. And the fact of the matter is that, it is that innovation in itself which could, on one hand produce such a ‘Economic affecting’ scenario, however out of fairness developments, and it also is the one which would make the NJK’s Planned KOAB system most efficiently and economically feasible. And again, the NJK KOAB’s system is its counterpart to the world’s nuclear and biological WMD arsenal, and would be used as a massive strike in defense of, or response to a clear and present WMD threat or attack from a world power seeking to do harm to the NJK. So, as involved in Starman’s dream, someone may spitefully choose to deem all of these plans of the NJK to be as threatening as e.g., the planning of a secret WMD program, as seen today with the claims against Iran, and they therefore would be attempting to ‘blow a whistle’ on this affair by, pointedly, trying to reach people who, as with that investigative journalist, have already naturally reached that alternative scenario “home” (i.e., from proper Biblical studies). But as discussed above, proper investigation of both the suspected (Dan 11) building, as well as the protective body suit evidence brought forward, even if examined by experts, contra. to what was being cunningly insinuatively conveyed by the whistle-blower, would reveal that the research and plannings are neither evil as implied nor unbiblical. The fact of the matter is that, Dan 11 and the Balls of Fire scenario involves the judgements of God on, pointedly a Socio-Economically (Capitalistic) corrupt world, which is causing the unnecessary death of millions. And so those plannings are to overturn those deadly wrongdoings, but of course, as typical throughout Biblical History, those who are involved and entrenched in that waywardness, will only see all of these overturning actions as a threat to them and their way of life (and not actually there lives) and since, especially in the U.S., many “religiously” believe this evil to be God’s will (=Isa 5:20), they will not hesitate to use whatever force they deem necessary to oppose any change here. Hence will be the Time of Trouble for God’s faithful people in those times as His Full Sabbath Will and those who are adhering to it, are now being actively and physically opposed, but here also will be the implementation of God’s defensive measure to protect His faithful people, and also by whatever (supernatural) means necessary, if His already instructed natural means are not yet ready to provide their pointed aid and/or are being unlawfully violated.
Voice of God Motif
As it was rightly brought forth in a comment on Starman’s dream, the 2:00 AM issue in the dream is allusive to the Voice of God and the deliverance at midnight which it provides. As indepth studies on this “Voice of God” topic show (see here), there are actually two distinct voicings of God. The first one ‘overturns the captivity of His faithful people’ (GC 636.3) while the Second one declares the day and hour of Christ’s return and delivers the Everlasting Covenant (GC 640.2). The first voicing shakes the Heavens (=has purely religious affectations) while the second one shakes both the heavens and the earth (=has both religious and temporal affectations).
Gathering of Witnesses and ‘Friend(s)’
With the SOP’s “Voice of God” motif being allusively involved here, the then notion of Starman and his two married friends all “somehow” knowing that God was going to speak that night would be as a result of them already knowing of that event. And that is from their studies of Final Events in the SOP. Also a ‘husband and wife’ symbolizes a ‘Church and its ministry’ working closely together, as in a marriage, and represent a working (SDA) Church, thus one which is, in part, proven ready for Christ’s return, having been living up to their light. (Cf. LDE 62.1) Correspondingly, Starman’s other friend, Mat, who also happens to be there, playing basketball in the driveway with, manifestly, a non-SDA friend, is, as Starman later perceived by the guys statements, at best, an attempt at ministry which is divorced (or “singled”) from God’s Church, thus His Truth, and is merely catering to the entertaining whims of the world. But they are also present there, at that self-known and auto-ascertained “Second Coming” reunion/gathering place, but Mat himself is still quite clueless about the spiritual ‘solemness’ of what is taking, and to take, place. Thus he represents a nominal SDA who is not even sure/knowing of the message. Tellingly/Confirmingly enough, with Starman later going on a ‘different side’ from where Mat was playing basketball, and there facing the east, (and it would be interesting to ascertain exactly which direction Mat’s side faced), it showed that Mat was indeed not intently looking for the Second Coming (or even ‘signs’ of it). Thus really, the worst kind of professed SDA today.
Effect of First Voicing
Now, as the typical understanding of this group, pointedly Starman and the two married couples, of the “Voice of God” sounding is that of a single voicing, and the one which sounds ‘at midnight and declares the end of probation (Rev 16:17) and then follows events which destroy with “angry waters” [people] the ‘Sodom [Ezek 16:46-50 | Rev 11:8] “seaports”’ of the world, with ‘the proudest cities of the world being laid low’, as well as Spiritual Babylon being ‘given the cup of the wine of the fierceness of God’s wrath’ (Rev 16:18-20) and it is then that God resends another (or continues to send a) rain of His WMD (Job 38:22-23) hailstones (Rev 16:21), just as He at the start of the Eschatological Trumpets (Rev 8:7) which “are doing their work of destruction”, and “God's people, who have been held in bondage for their faith, are set free.” (GC 636.2-3) And as the SOP says that this first voicing will shake ‘the heavens and the earth’ (GC 636.2) it is manifest that the shaking of the powers of the earth also involved here are the EW 41.2 ‘shaking of the angry nations.’
The application of all of this to the NJK Project development is how it will then be finally delivered by the hand of God from those from various factions who have been variously acting to suppress it. But from this time of its tangible berth in as a national. Temporal entity in this world, it will have its natural impact upon the people, systems and nations which are variously opposing God’s Sabbatical will.
The Second Voicing
What is significant from here is that, as stated above, there is later one, after the first voicing has done its destructive work, another, second, voicing of God. It is one which ‘declares the day and hour of Christ’s return and delivers the Everlasting Covenant.’ (GC 640.2). And it is then that the sign of the Son of Man is seen appearing in the Heavens (GC 640.3) But what is further interesting is that priorly, in EW 285.1-286.1, EGW had been given a similar vision of (solely) that First Voicing, and then had been shown that a Jubilee period would occur between that First voicing and the first appearing of the sign of the Son of Man. Understandings into that interim Jubilee period reveals that this was part of God’s initial temporal Zion plannings which is effectuated through a temporal fulfilment of the OT and NT Zion of Israel prophecies (e.g., Isa 60, Mic 4, etc). So the imperceived passing of time between a midnight voicing and a second one, is evidently specified in Starman dream as that 2:00 A.M. “voicing of God” event. So what is involved in this dream is that, those gathered at Starman’s home then, probably having arrived before midnight, when it had been ‘very late’ at the, time wise, end of the, day.
The Jubilee period here where the world spiritually and socio-economically enslaved are set free, all also according to God’s Sabbatical Will (Isa 58) and Law (cf. Deut 5:12-15) will begin at this post-deliverance of the NJK Project time.
Implicit “Midnight Cry” Motif
Implicit “Midnight Cry” Motif
The ‘delayed midnight appearance’ depiction in Starman’s dream is most manifestly spiritually, implicitly allusive to the parabolic experience of the Ten Virgins in Matt 25:1-13 (COL 405-421). In that parable, the arrival of the bridegroom was expected in the evening, but he tarried until midnight. Well in this dream, the “bridegroom” is additionally delayed, now pass that midnight marker, until 2 A.M. But just like in the Matt 25 parable, surely the 5 wise virgins will have enough oil (=Latter Rain Holy Spirit portion) to be ready at the 2 A.M., though it may involve them to have to extinguish their lamps for those couple of hours after the midnight coming expectation has unevently come and gone. (=Isa 6:13|Rev 11:13a). The “moronically” foolish virgins (COL 411.1) however will long, still be out of oil, as they never had made spiritual provisions for God’s discretionary and testing, injunctive delayings.
So, it is only those who have made the necessary Latter Rain acquisitions will be able to be ready to usher in the prolonged time Jubilee period which God will have now justly, injunctively decided to have occur instead.
Capable/Feasible/Available Recording
The attempt to try to record the event, was evidently in order to be able to self-convincingly and documentedly present it to other people, but the issue of not actually having a videotaping device, but only a VCR reveals on one spiritual hand that God wanted this message to be merely shared in faith. As it was typical of SOP vision, which this special revelation here parallels, at first they were witnessed by some people being open/public visions. But later on, they were private revelations and had to be accepted by the rest of the Church body in faith. Similarly, this gathering of 3 families represented the public/open (=3+ witnesses) of that revelation, but any attempt to later communicate it and have it believed would have to be only in faith, from/through the testimony of those direct witnesses. However, with also a strong belief that the revelation could be recorded with only a VCR, it would therefore involve that this revelation was not actually something new and special, but from an on air broadcast. So that message was manifestly to be broadcast over the Satellite/Television airwaves, and it could be recorded with a VCR. With a VCR by now being a virtually obsolete device, and starting to wane by 2004, the year of Starman June 8 dream, an interesting certain “dating point” is manifestly involved here, with a meaning that this message could be so ‘recorded over the airwaves’ from that time.
Fulfilling enough, with the NJK Project website being lauched since November of 2004, and it Biblical warning/announcement basis message communicated sometime before that from the initial June 2000 release of this message, therein is seen how this message may have been obtainable ‘over the mirroring “broadcasting” airwaves’ of the internet. (And by today, much of what can be broadcast over the Satellite and TV signals can also be made directly available over the internet.) And as later stated by Starman that: ‘they could only “bumble and fumble” when trying to record the actions of God’, as several online forum discussion on the NJK Project and its Biblical plans have shown (see links in this page), SDA’s have indeed “bumbled and fumbled” around as they have tried to understand this prophetic message and actions of God.
Sunrise at 2:00 A.M.
Now if Starman then sees the Sun suddenly, miraculously rising at exactly 2:00 A.M. but this is actually the time of a Second Voicing of God, and as stated in GC 636.2 & EW 285.1, the sun had then already appeared, shining in its strength. Then what is that Sunrise. In a naturalistic understanding, this would involve Starman house being located in a place that is (2 time zones) further West than the original location where the Sun would have appeared at midnight under the First Voicing of God. That would explain why he would be seeing that Midnight Sunrise 2 hours later. It therefore spiritually involves that they were not “Easternmost saints” (cf. EW 15.2; Mar 287.8) -all having most evident Geo-Economic reference: i.e., ‘the SDA’s which are in/towards the (Capitalistic) “West” -who were thus inherently falsely worshipping [=Ezek 8:16]); and that this miraculous midnight sign had first appeared to other saints. And really, the destruction which occur between that first voicing and this second one would have already transpired by the time of that 2:00 A.M. viewing by Starman and his (SDA) gathering. Indeed Starman fully expected this to be the Midnight rising but gradually self understood for the undeniable facts of the matter that it was not. So that sign was similar to what he had always expected from the typical SDA study of Final events, but he could clearly see here that he had an incorrect understanding of that event. More about the reason for that ‘mindless confusion’ later.
With the NJK having been long established, and its Jubilee era also started, the Sun has already long risen for those, (the members of the NJK), who had been ‘closer to the East’, which spiritually represents those who have actually had a better understanding of the signs of Christ’s return. And contrary to the prior ‘evil WMD conspiracy’ claims of the whistle-blower for that NJK’s plannings while then in its research phase, when SDA then witness this sunrising at 2:00 A.M. it will instead be “beautiful, peaceful, miraculous” as Starman saw it in the dream.
“Middle of Third Watch” View
While in “surface/selective” part the interpreting/applicational ‘(squarely in the) middle of the Third Watch” view based on e.g, Luke 12:38; 2T 192.1; 193.3 presented here by Eugene Shubert makes Biblical and SOP sense, it is telling to me that this is isolatively the only part of a primary application, vs. the secondary one being presented here which I see that would have a valid application. However that would have to be in complete isolation from the rest of that dream and what it fully and in all of its rightly understood details is pointing to. It is then most telling to me how, to get that primary view claim, one needs to wrest the “Third Watch” statement out of its full SOP prophetic context (=2T 183.1-193.3) as well as how EGW rightly understood the meaning of that June 12, 1868 vision (2T 194.1-198.1). The meaning of that “Watch Vision and Testimony” dream was not to ‘set the time for the Second Coming’ even in genera/rangy “Third Watch” terms, but, as the title of the Testimony is, to address the crucial issue of “Worldliness in the Church”. And as stated there, if that is not dealt with, God’s professed people will then be actually be found sleeping, and only in God’s great mercy would the Second Coming then be postponed, particularly in the light of those in the world who would not have been properly warned by such a “worldy and sleeping” Church.
So that “Watch” detail was to emphasize to the Church that it needs to be dealing with its worldy deficiencies, with the Church indeed acting, even in its best efforts, particularly outreach and evangelistically wise, according to the ways/policies/principles of the world. So the only “Coming” that they will then see in such a case is the pointed OT-wrapping up warning, Malachi 3 & 4 sudden Coming of ‘God’s messenger of the Covenant’ (Mal 3:1) to His Temple in order to purify the sons of Levi (Mal 3:3) and obtain pure offerings from them (Mal 3:4); fill in the “Book of Remembrance” (Mal 3:16-18); =the selection of the 144,000; and then have the rising of the “Sun of Righteousness” (Mal 4:2)!
Pointedly, as fully dealt in that SOP testimony, the issue of not properly and generously supporting the outreach work of the Church will be a pivotal issue, with even, EGW elsewhere (i.e., PH004 1.1-10.3) rightly applying the (not rotely/mindlessly cited) Mal 3:8-15 statement on ‘Tithing Robbery’ to the way in which the Church is selfishly misusing God’s institutional blessings and resources for their own worldly interests and personal “gain” (=PK 705.1). (See the expounding statement in the “160911 0930” [55:58ff] (video) sermon on this issue by Jon Wood, the director of the Jesus for Asia Mission/Ministry).
So this pointed “Third Watch” detailing was spiritually all done to indicate to SDA that they should be seeking to get themselves in perfect harmony with Christ Gospel Will and not instead be pre-occupied, as indeed most common, with obtaining a date/time for the Second Coming.
Worldly Life as (Seemingly) Usual
It is then tellingly interesting that even in the face of that miraculous sign Mat’s friend is still completely unimpressed and clueless, and prefers to talk about a future sporting event. To him there is nothing miraculous here. He therefore is paramountly seeing all of this as natural, unusual, perhaps, as he is also staring at it, for who normatively stares at a normal time sunrise, but still not deeming it as miraculous, as Starman and his friends. But of course, as a sunrise before the natural time (i.e., 4-5 A.M.) this event is definitely not according to the normal order of things.
For the wicked, who typically cannot perceive the miraculous acts of God (see e.g., the natural understanding of the (Second) voice of God by the wicked in EW 14.1), as they are actually super-natural, thus involving a use of nature, the rise and establishment of the NJK will not seem to them as an Act of God, but merely as ‘an earthly attempt to establish a new country’. In the world present (Capitalistic) economic mindset, with the economy being symbolized in the sun (see in here), It is “naturally” expected that the “sun” will one day, gradually, and in the due order of things, rise upon everyone on Earth. And so it is seen as perfectly normal to not do anything to precipitate the economic development of the world beyond what the Capitalistic economy is allowing. However the NJK Project will be going by the Biblical Socialistic Economy of Christ which is rooted in Righteousness, which is “doing the right thing, and at the right time” (2T 445.1), and so, as symbolized by a pre-dawn rising, in fact, as the reckoned “darkest” parts of the night, at midnight, that will indeed be a global economic rising which is not according to the order of set worldly systems. The rich and powerful of the world, and those who are reverently aspiring to so be one day through the capitalistic system will of course be bothered by this non-conforming socio-economic rising, yet they also may be seeing it as, yes, non-natural, but not supernatural, and thus merely as a freak occurrence which won’t have a lasting impact of reoccurrence on them. But the effects that this will then have upon the righteous, and what they will be righteously setting out to do according to the full understanding of Christ Gospel then (‘their faces shining as Moses’ face’ (PP 330.2-3)) will greatly alarm them but they will not be able to do anything to stop this then. (EW 285.2-286.1)
Coming Second Voicing
In actually a corresponding sense, Steve, despite having perceived that this SOP sign was quite “late”, yet still here is believing that this must mean that the Second Coming is soon to take place. And technically with a second voicing soon to take place as delineated in the SOP, when then the time of the Second Coming is stated, then that would seem to be the case, but Starman’s SOP understanding of only a single voice of God has him confused that the Second Coming is ‘late’, 2 hours late.
It is however odd that Starman makes an inclusive “we” statement when yelling out in response to Mat’s friend insouciance here, saying: “don’t worry, we won’t be here by then!” because that, at least tacitly, implies that Mat and his friend who priorly were not at all caring or preparing for that solemn event, would also be among those who would be redeemed at Christ’s appearing. So this is reflective of the lack of spiritual discernment in the SDA Church where tares are indiscriminately considered to also be wheat.
Switch to a Vision
From personal, and now clearly understood, experience in dreams and vision, I readily recognize what next occurs to Starman in his dream when he yells out something, and also when he finds himself feeling a clear-cut switching from a dream to a vision. First of all, it is typical in a dream or vision that when the dreamer perceives him/her-self as crying or yelling something out, that this is the end of that dream or vision. Typically, they suddenly wake up then (see E.g., William Miller in EW 83.8). Also the sudden ending of a dream or vision at a particular point is to emphasize that: ‘this is the point at which you are now realistically at’ and/or that ‘this is the major issue that now needs to be dealt with’. So in Starman’s dream the sudden switching-ending here, and that from a dream to a vision, (-with dreams typically involving the rehashing of past/old/known events or subjects and visions dealing with future/new/unknown ones)[28], it was being stressedly shown that what was to follow next as a vision in this revelation would involve future/new/unknown events or subjects. So not surprisingly, the subject of the ‘day/date’ of Christ’s coming is what is dealt with in that seamlessly continuing vision.
The Dating Cylinder
So Starman then sees the horizontal cylinder, which interestingly enough, as Steve later relates, matches what his wife’s uncle Bob had priorly seen in a dream (see in here: “Bob’s story” subsection -I also discuss it in interpreting detail below), which gives what he immediately understands to be the day/date of Christ’s return.
First of all, the fact that an odometer-type of device is used to show that date, shows that the Second Coming’s date is indeed movable and relative. I.e., it was not, e.g., a plaque with the date engraved upon it (thus a “hard date”). But one that could be set, and that by distinct singular digits, from several possible date combination. And its “spinning numbers” can also be further typifying a certain general randomness in the selecting of a date, which indeed Biblically true, as the Second Coming, as seen by several possible prior occurrences but postponements, is actually dependent on the then readiness of the professed believing generation upon which it can be effectuated.
Secondly, it is significant to me, if that is specifically what was seen in the dream, that Starman was seeing the “day/date” of Christ’s coming, and not the “day and hour” as EGW saw. (e.g., LDE 272.1-273.1 = Matt 24:36; 25:13). That is differentially significant because a ‘day/date’ (e.g., (Thursday) March 10, 2044) is less specific than its “day and hour” (‘... + at 3:32 A.M.’). By natural reckoning, once a date is known, the precise week day can be calendrically also known. Conversely the expression of a ‘known “day”’ in the Bible also involves a “calender date”, and so the hour specification is what is different between those two revelations here (i.e., the SOP vs. Starman’s dream vision) in regards to the date of Christ’s return, with Starman’s being less definite.
So here a future, but less specific (new) revelation was given as to when Christ Second Coming would occur.
Cannot Communicate the Date
As Starman found in to be in the vision, it was quite odd that he could not then voice the date which he had seen. He relates that he did not feel that God was preventing him to do this, but that this was all because his mind could not comprehend the clearly presented date. So the obvious thing here, (just as Daniel was shockingly astonished by a distinct apparition of a 2300 evening and mornings (=2300 days of atonement), until the fulfilment of the prior vision he had seen (Dan 8:13-14), Daniel later became exhausted and sick and remained astounded at the vision of the time portion which is the only thing which he had not yet be aided to understand (Dan 8:15-17, 26-27)), was that he could not understand the “why” of that clearly presented date. And it logically was not ‘why it was so near’ because he surely expected, as earlier expressed, as soon return of Christ, but ‘why it was so far in the future’. God had revealed to him (representative of ‘soon Second Coming’ awaiting SDA’s) that the Second Coming’s time had been put off to a much further date in the future. (E.g., April 21, 2996). And Starman was effectively/symbolically “speechless” as that development. He probably wanted to express the seen date as “soon”, as expected, but it clearly was not and his mind just could not conflate the two distinct facts and implications here. It is interesting that he deemed this to be a “misalignment and/or misunderstanding” which, with especially the ‘possible misalignment’ supposition was here implying that God had made a mistake in presenting that date. But that simply seemed so because it was not at all according to what Starman expected
And by natural implication, with the specific “hour” of that extended date would be later determined then, when it then will be about to occur. (And possibly during then a literalistic fulfilment of the SOP Final Events, if defiantly (renewed) spiritual circumstances then demand it. I.e., a renewedly erected “Spiritual Babylon” entity.).
So all of this here harmonizes with the NJK Project’s temporal Zion and Jubilee Era Biblical basis and understanding that time has been prolonged by God, and that for a necessary while, all due to the shortcoming of the SDA Church today. And as also involved in that dream, SDA will only come to that understanding only sometime after the NJK has been established, following its earlier “midnight deliverance”.
So it is indeed fitting here that this revelation to Starman which was indeed on something future/new/unknown was done in a vision, and it clearly was much more future/new/unknown than Starman ever expected, for, as he later stated, he was believing this revelation would be about ‘an “ABSOLUTELY IMMINENT” Second Coming’.
Telling Ending of Dream
Confirming the fact that Starman had been shown a far-in-the-future date, his revelation then ends right at that point. But comparing this to the SOP revelation following the Second voicing of God which gives that specific time for Christ’s return (and also delivers the Everlasting Covenant to God’s People - which is not shown to be done to Starman’s group), the next and soon event which was to occur is the small black, (then large white), cloud appearing Christ returning (EW 15.2; 286.2; GC 640.3 = Rev 14:14-16, 17-20). So this all shows that the effectuation of Second Coming itself was not the pointed object of that dream and vision, but the overall revelation that its time would be advanced to some much later time in the future and, as the prior events in the dream involved, as shown above, God had been working to prepare the alternative, Church Triumphant, work for that time. As Starman was impressed that Date Segment was “HIGHLY significant”.
And as stated above, the sudden awakening point of a dream/vision, indeed “suddenly” before a naturally expected ending, thus here, before the sign of the Son of Man and His Second Coming is seen as it was to immediately next appear, emphatic highlights the “realistic” point of what should then be the communicative concern of the one who has received this message. And that is here that: ‘we are in this time when the Second Coming time has been postponed by God, and also that He has been working on an alternative course for that extended time, -the NJK Project.
It is funny that Starman sees his inability to speak the Date to be similar to Eugene Shubert being unable to understand fully what the angel was saying to him, for as also discussed in Shubert’s dream above, these here both involve furthering Theological topics with accompanying tangible actions which SDA indeed ‘just cannot begin to understand’, namely in Shubert’s case WBSC plans in order to have the best Biblical understandings and in Starman’s case, NJK Plans in order to tangibly implement those fuller Biblical understandings.
‘Uncle’ Bob’s Dream
As Steve Starman observed, the dream of his wife’s uncle Bob back in 1966. Read it here. Getting right to its interpretation, I am seeing/perceiving/understanding that all of the imagery details shown in it have a (contextualizing) significance. First of all, a high place naturally occurs on a mountain top. But with that top being flat, if it is a mountain top, since their peaks are naturally spiked and ragged, it therefore would have to be a place that has been specially and artificial made to be flat. And if/since that is the (logical/sequitur) case, then that is therefore a mountain top place that been so prepared for a construction. Interestingly enough the imagery of pillars just freely standing there alone is odd in itself, but in the context of a planned and here ongoing/in process/started “construction”, then it makes harmonious sense. So those pillars would be the initial construction stages of that structure. With this being a Biblical dream, the use of pillars, and indeed not even steel beams as in modern (then 1966) architecture, point to a Bible times type of building. And in the Bible days/times, “pillars” were normatively and naturally used to build a specific structure, particularly in Israel, and that was a Temple edifice. So the specific setting is the building of a Temple of God. (=EW 19.1).
Getting right to what this background setting imagery is pointing to, in the Bible, in Eph 2:20-21, Paul speaks of the upbuilding of the Church in construction terms, where members themselves are compared to the key building material. In Gal 2:9, faithful Church Members are also considered as ‘(supporting) pillars’. And in 1 Tim 3:15, the Church itself, which is composed of those building pillars, is in turn collectively considered as a “support and pillar of the Truth.” Now all of these notions and comparisons are found in the promise made to the Sixth Church, Philadelphia in Rev 3:12, where overcomers are promised that they would be made to be pillars in God’s Temple, where ‘he will not go out of it anymore’. These overcomers are also promised there to have: ‘God’s name, the name of the city of God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from God and Christ’s New name written on them.’ In short here these last three ‘name writings’ involve, respectively, having: the character of God, the character of the city of God, the New Jerusalem (which in Israel was located on a mountain, and encompassed God’s Zion, the Temple’s Mount, (See e.g., Isa 4:3; cf. 10:32; 37:32)); and Christ’s new name which is tied to better/more fully understanding Christ’s Righteousness as well as His nature. (See e.g., here). (And it is from there and through this, which involves ‘drinking His blood (= (Spiritual) True Righteousness-forming teachings and eating His flesh (=partaking of His “nature”) that one then will be able to ‘bring forth from Daniel and Revelation [and other Bible and SOP (i.e., EGW+)] prophecy truth that is inspired by the Holy Spirit’. (TM 116.1))
Now all of these key themes in Rev 3:12 gradually find a fulfilment in the book of Revelation. First of all, a revelation in the SOP confirmingly revealed that this is all the lot of the sealed 144,000 (EW 15.1), which is show to all takes place during the Sixth Church Era, the most commendable Church. And so, an initiating application is seen in the Rev 7:1-8 sealing process of the 144,000. And as stated in Rev 7:15, this group which by then has swelled to a great multitude, are said to be continually in God’s very presence and serving Him in His Temple. This group is then next seen in Rev 14:1ff, as a standing on Mount Zion, and (by) then having the name (=character) of the Lamb and God and of God written on their forehead. This group is next shown standing on the Sea of Glass in Rev 15:1ff, which, as shown from the background prophetic imagery of Ezek 47:1-12 is a larger body of water which is alimented by the River of Life which flows in God’s New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9ff), and from the throne of God and of the Lamb (Rev 22:1-5). So with these 144,000 having the character of that Heavenly New Jerusalem written upon them, this means that they would have developed, and would be fully living according to this Heavenly Character, and that before being translated to heaven, during that Sixth Church Era, the Philadelphia Era of ‘brotherly love’. And thirdly, with, as discussed in this post, the symbol of a “star” (=EW 15.1) prominently representing an Angel, and with a Star being in actuality a (distant) Sun, and a Sun being symbolic of “righteousness”, then it is being further understood here that: the also involved here is an understanding of the Glorious Character of/in Christ’s Incarnation(s) which deals in a Message of Righteousness. And, summarily stated here, that “Glorious Character” in Christ’s Incarnation(s) is seen in His self-denying and self-sacrificial love. (Phil 2:1-11; Heb 1:4ff) And so those sealed 144,000 will perfectly emulate this Perfect Righteousness in Christ Character (cf. COL 69.1).
So the background imagery in Bob’s dream all points to the initial time (=beginnings of construction) of the Sealing of the 144,000.
Next, the circularly arranged pillars, naturally emphatically imply an inner focal point, in/for that arrangement, as compared to a more normative square arrangement which would be pointing more to the structure upbuilding. So what is found at the center of those pillars is the focus of that arrangement, which may be a central room in the wider Temple building. And thus, by first starting to build/arrange that central room even before the rest of/surrounding building infrastructure is built, shows just how pivotally significant that central room is to the proper building of that Temple. And in a way, if this is actually, technically, a constructional process necessity (i.e., that central room has to be first built because it would not be possible to build it if the rest of the building is first completed), it also speaks to the great/conscientious care that is being taken to properly build that room and/or that this is an absolute structural necessity. I.e., the building material for that central room cannot, or should not be brought in in dissected parts and then reassembled to build that central room and/or those structural material will be best performant if they are in whole and uncut parts. So as this is manifestly all out of a strict structural material strength and integrity, which in turns speaks of a need for that room to be as structural strong as possible, then this all points to that central room being a literal cornerstone segment of that entire building. This is actually frequently, even normatively seen in the building of large edifices, particularly in Bible days, where that central part/room was key to structurally support the entire building, particularly its roof. An example of this was seen in the large Temple of the Philistines where Samson was being paraded. (Judges 16:25-30). As stated there, those middle pillars, on top of supporting the house itself, and its roof it could also support the weight of 3000 people (=probably over half a million pounds) upon that roof. In today’s large scale construction, e.g., i.e., a skyscraper (e.g, the former and new World Trade Center towers, typically an inner, central, supporting core is first built and then the rest of the building is built around and “(restingly) upon” it. Such a central core also has a quite overt functional purpose as it also serves to house the building elevators, without which that building would not functional be most efficient and accessible. In so, from those two structurally comparative Old and New construction examples, it can be seen how an central structure in a large (Temple) construction can be important to the building as a whole. And, as stated above, with a focal point seeming to be the pointed purpose of the deliberate circular arrangement of those pillars, that central room, like a skyscrapers central elevator shaft, also seems to have a quite significant function, almost like, in a Temple Setting, and a Temple of God here, a Most Holy Place/Throne Room.
The circular arrangement of those pillars are collectively also symbolic, in that deliberate arrangement, of an immense pillar. And that is particularly seen in the fact that if/since, this central area and its structural pillars are manifestly for a structural support for the entire edifice and also it roof, then it should instead, or at least also, have had a large pillar in the middle of those pillars, or all by itself. But that manifestly was not material-formation wise possible, and so, several, comparatively smaller and individual pillars were instead used for that ‘immense pillar’. Thus also their representing circular arrangement. Nonetheless here, it can also be that, since this is manifestly the initial stages of building even that central supporting structure area of that temple, that when more and more of those pillars are added, a resulting densely packed group of pillars will result in that arrangement equating a seemingly single, immense pillar.
Now what this all is, prophetically, quite naturally, allusive to, is EGW initial dream in 1842 recorded in EW 78.3-79.3, during the Millerite Preaching Era, where she was reluctant to enter a built Temple that others were largely deriding and claim was a ‘safety deception’, and moreover she was also reluctant to, after having entered the temple, face a mangled and bleeding lamb which was tied to an immense central pillar which supported the building. Do read that account for its details. The allusiveness and parallels to the imagery in this dream of Bob, particularly when unpackedly interpreted and understood as done thus far above, are, particularly, spiritually undeniably evident. So the Temple construction scene in Bob’s dream would have been the initial stages of the completed Temple in EGW first dream which indeed there had elevated seating for people, thus it would be in its end a large congregational Temple vs. what was found in Ancient Israel, and manifestly all in order to now house God’s finally achieved “kingdom of priest” (Exod 19:5-6; Isa 61:6; 1 Pet 2:5, 9; cf. Rev 5:10), which, as alluded to above, will indeed be the primary work of the 144,000.
It is relatedly most significant to observe that in the Heavenly New Jerusalem, there will be not Temple as God and the Lamb will be its Temple (Rev 21:22ff), yet in Rev 7:15, the 144,000 are said to be working day and night in a Temple. But a gradually withdrawing from/effacing of that Temple is then seen with these 144,000 as they are next shown in Rev 14:1-4 to merely be on that Temple’s Mount itself, Mount Zion, and also before [at least figuratively] the throne of God in His Throne Room, and they next, even more “distancingly”, are said to be on the Sea of Glass (Rev 15:1). And with all of these Revelation scenes being, in regards to the general and specific sequence of prophetic event in Revelation, all before ‘Second Coming’ ending(s), it all appears that this Temple building and filling of the sealed 144,000, which then unfolds into wider territorial establishing and fillings (i.e., Mount Zion and the Sea of Glass) are originally to have a literal, temporal (i.e., prior to the Second Coming) fulfilment. See in this post and this one at the section for all of those cited passages in Revelation. [See more general Revelation passages discussions linkings here]. And so Bob was being shown in 1966, the very early stages of the ‘Major Construction Project’ of God.
Rev 5 Allusiveness
All of these themes in this dream which point to the early stages of the upbuilding the central room of a Temple of God, which is straitly associated with the Throne Room of God, and also the many links to EGW’s large Temple supported by a immense pillar, and tied up, mangled and bleeding (=slain) lamb all are allusive to the Throne Room scene of Rev 5. As that episode is amply discussed in this post and its present day refulfillment as it was understood to be possible, even prophetically the case by EGW, and all in a ‘failed leadership replacement and annulled old covenant replacement with a new one), it will be succinctly interpretively/applicationally said here that it can be understood that God was showing in Bob’s dream that He was then (i.e., around 1966) beginning to set the foundation works towards the refulfillment of that Rev 5 episode. And this would all likely take place then when the Temple in construction then was later completed.
And as discussed above, the completion of that central room was evidently the structural key to that Temple construction continuance, and so, with that central pillar made up of many single pillars collected together to form one, God was using the various Truth works, (if the actual worker was not of lasting temple structural material), of various SDA’s, and likely also others Christians to form that central pillar. Personally, having long seen the fulfilment of the EGW Dream of EW 78.3-79.3 in my NJK Project works (see e.g., in this comment in a November 2000 communication), I have experienced such an application for this part of the dream where indeed the various valid and proper contributions of various Christian scholars, teachers, writers, preachers and workers have been helpful in the launching and more than less steady establishment of the NJK Project plannings.
With this evident parallel of Bob’s Dream to the Rev 5 scene, a further allusive/mirroring parallel can be seen in the fact that a tall angel was standing beside him, and then pointed him to something, the horizontal cylinder. The parallel to Rev 5 then would be John standing with a Mighty/Strong Angel (Rev 5:2) who speaks of the 7-Sealed Scroll (see in this post for more info on that scroll and its Biblically evident content). That Scroll contained many key “covenantal” things, including a prophetic delineation of the future development of God’s Cause. And so, Bob in the dream can be representatively substituted with the role that the (uninformed) John played in that Rev 5 scene. The tall angel standing at the right side (=favor) of Bob, is of course that Mighty Angel in Rev 5. And the horizontal cylinder in the midst of those circularly arranged pillar, and thus in the center of that ‘throne Room’ can be seen to be in the central place of God’s Throne in that Rev 5 scene, as understood from the positional details Rev 4:4. In fact the surrounding 24 elders around God’s Throne can be seen, with, as discussed above, faithful people being symbolically represented as “pillars”, the equivalence of those circularly arranged pillars. And so the question now is, how exactly is that horizontal cylinder is representative of God Throne, with the 7-Sealed Scroll which was “at the right side of the Throne” (Rev 5:1, 7) intrinsically associated with it?
The Cylindrical Object
Straightly said, as discussed in this post on the 4 Living Creatures who, as depicted in Ezek 1, ferry around God’s Throne in its attempt to establish it, thus God’s Reign, on this Earth. Closely associated with this ‘Enthroning of God’ is th multi-faceted 7-Sealed Scroll, whose initial scroll, as discussed in this post, involved the Israel King Enthronement Scroll (Deut 17:18-20 = 2Kgs 11:12; cf. 2 Chron 23:11) which was a fresh and personal copy of God’s Law and Testimonies, i.e., =a Bible. And so, the “time” (=date) involved in that cylinder in Bob’s dream would be related to the “time” when God would act to begin to fulfill those Israel Shaking and then Restoring plans which are delineated in the entire book of Ezekiel, which, as presented in this post, constitute the message of the Seven Thunders of Rev 10.
The “Determined Time”
So when the angel then said to Bob in his dream that “There is a determined time...”, which as typically seen in Shubert’s Dream was an incomplete, riddle like, statement by an Angel, while it may readily be assumed to be in reference to the ‘determined time for the Second Coming’, it actually could be a reference to a number of other key prophetic events in God’s plans, where each of these events similarly have a “determined time” beyond which God’s forbearance will not go further and He will act to effectuate due judgement then (=the end of probationary periods of time). And confirming this understanding is the question which Bob was shown to have asked then of “Is there a determined time for everything?” Evidently God wanted here, through this representation, highlight the possibility, even implementation of this, starting around then, and most strikingly versus the typical common SDA understanding that ‘there only is a determined time for the Second Coming’. Not surprisingly they only care to “look” for that time, while other major precursory events such as the time for the Sealing of the 144,000, starting with Rev 7:4a’s sealing of the 12,000 in Judah (=the SDA Church), the Fall of the Latter Rain, the Shaking of the SDA Church, etc. And that “determined time” statement was warningly not only stating that there is a time for such events to occur, but in terms of the “favoring” (=right side) of the SDA Church, which Bob may have been a representative of in the dream as a lone (lay) member, it is also implied that ‘there is a determined time when promised blessing and events will be made to pass by if the church has not made itself ready to have those promises fulfilled and receive those blessings.’
Interestingly enough in EGW’s first dream, she was not aware that there was a “determined time” and was caught off guard when suddenly a trumpet sounded and all of the happy people she was seeing disappeared from that Temple (EW 79.2). And as the above 144,000 migrations showed, i.e., rom the Temple proper (Rev 7:15), to Mount Zion (Rev 14:1-5) and then to the Sea o f Glass (Rev 15:1ff), EGW’s first dream manifestly was made to end at the point where the 144,000 who had gathered in that Temple then made the next migrating step to Mount Zion (= e.g., Micah 4). With that Rev 7:15 Temple being the Church Triumphant, which is the ‘graduating phase of the Church Militant (=SDA Church) (LDE 61.2-62.2), it all represents the 144,000 having attain the refined Spiritual Temple/Church stage where now they can begin to be used by God to fully establish His always-desired, demonstrative (=Matt 24:14), Temporal Zion amongst all of the worlds nations. (= e.g., Isa 60; -all involved in the Dan 11:45 prophetic statement. See in here).
It can also be seen that as the First Trumpet of Revelation (Rev 8:7 discussed in here) affects, in one shot/“blast”, all that was not to be affected in the halted 4 Winds Time of Rev 7:1-3, it is therefore evident that the 144,000 had all been sealed by then, by that First Trumpet blast, and the Second Trumpet (Rev 8:8-9) beginnings by the smashing establishment of a Mountain in the middle of the Sea (=God’s Mount Zion), then the Trumpet blast that EGW heard in her dream which “shook” that Temple (a Shaking in itself, for God does repeatedly shake/sift His professed people so that ‘only what cannot be shaken can remain’ (Heb 12:26-29; cf. Matt 22:11-14) as there naturally can be many merely “loaves and fish “unsealed” followers” amongst the true ones (see John 6:26-27)), was that Second Trumpet’s of Revelation blast which initiated that migratory move towards Mount Zion.
So this “determined time” in Starman’s dream is pointedly in relation to/in line with the SOP’s statement in 16MR 19.2, which is evidently drawn from Isa 34:8 (cf. Isa 61:2; 63:4), in regards to God’s ‘soon set time to favor Zion’:
“The set time to favor Zion will soon come. God has provided men and means whereby His work shall be accomplished. He will not leave His people to shame, but will accomplish His work. His work will move just as He has ordained it to move. Our covenant with Christ unites with the majesty of an omnipotent King the gentleness and tenderness of a caretaking shepherd. [=Rev 5; 7:17|AA 589.2] Please read the forty-second chapter of Isaiah.”
Relation To Mark of the Beast
With all of these understandings on the Temple Construction process of Bob’s dream, a statement made by EGW in EW 64.1-2 involving an ‘almost finished (thus determined) time’ and “shelter”, all in relation to the Mark of the Beast, it can be seen that if that shown to be begun Temple construction was not completed, and that in time, that determined time would come and find such professed people without a shelter or roof to dwell in. Indeed the placing of a roof on that building greatly depended on that principally supporting central pillar(s) being fully completed. So working to build the rest of the building while not also, even first, completing the building of that center pillar would prove to be futile in regards to a plagues shelter. So, with the Great Controversy having its last battle in the Mark of the Beast Conflict, it is therefore seen that all of this, i.e., Bob’s dream has closely related implications to the Mark of the Beast issue. And it is warningly stating that if the Church does not complete its ‘temple construction within the “determined time” they too, even if on the construction site of the Temple, will be caught with a Shelter then and also be receiving the 7 Last Plagues.’ (CET 187.3). And not surprisingly, that preparation all revolves around fully understanding and observing God (Isa 58) Sabbath (Rev 7:1-3; EW 36.2 = Ezek 34 = Matt 25:31-46; See also this post).
Pointed ‘Awakening Charge/Concern’
So as the message of understanding that God has a set/determined time for His prophetic preparations is one that should be clearly understood by the Church, which would then involved working to be ready to timely and successfully meet those “Divine deadlines” and not, as commonly done in the SDA Church, merely look for a single “time” that of the Second Coming, or even for a Sunday Law for that matter, it is not surprising, and in normative keeping that Bob suddenly awoke right upon that very point, and strikingly enough even before the angel could, manifestly, even begin to give him an/any answer. So that then is what should be, actually ‘should have been’, the main preparatory message and emphasis in the Church, during the final stages of its probationary time, rather than overlooking these “Temple upbuilding” deadline and rather looking for the end event, the Second Coming. As shown in EGW’s dream (EW 79.2), it is only when all of this Temple building work is completed that God’s people can then ‘happily look forward to a Second Coming-type, joyful event’.
J Lynn Peters’ Dream
A dream of another SDA cited by Eugene Shubert here, is particularly interesting in the
light of Steve Starman’s dream and his “uncle-in-law” Bob, is that of J Lynn Peters. With several symbolic elements discussed on the two above dreams also found/used in Peters’ dream, the ready interpretation of them and the dream can be made here. First of all, as usual/typical, the background setting of the dream is particularly helpful. Peters’ relates that it was given when there was strife and conflict in her local Church over position nominating. So then saw an application of her dream to that situation.
However on a much wider (=secondary) scale, the dream extends to the similar ‘striving for/seeking position’ in the SDA Church, which, as discussed here, does not merely include ‘wanting to have a position’ but also acting unrighteously in order to maintain that position and not doing what is Biblically due. There are several such, now entrenched, situations and stances in the SDA Church. (See here). The sectarian and individualistic state of the Church and its ministries is also a direct fruit of this revered “seeking position” striving where people “zealously” set off to establish their own ministry, or preach their own understandings/message, thus everyone doing what is right in their own eyes, whenever they encounter any harmonizing and collaborating impasse, to the point where, as depicted by the “idol of Jealousy” in Ezek 8:5-6 (see here), this sectarian and individualistic way has become the default norm.
And so, getting right to the interpretation of Peters’ dream, the “high plateau” which she saw was equivalently the same as that flat top mountain which Bob had seen in his dream. This was the specially prepared place where God’s temple was to be upbuilt. And rather than the use of the choice material of pillars (=supporting pillars of Truth) (God’s triumphant faithful people/leaders Gal 2:9; 1 Tim 3:15; Rev 3:12)), naturally or planted evergreen trees, which naturally sound ideal and do look nice, were instead found there. And so no structurally sound temple could possibly be build from those evergreen trees. And evidently it indeed was not built. And even if it was started, as in Bob’s dream, with the central room, the then sprouting and surrounding evergreen trees just completely blocked off that evidently stopped and abandoned construction and staunchly were impeding any continuance of it. For any construction to resume there, those trees had to be all cut done and physically removed, and that is what God set out to do in Peters’ dream.
The Evergreen Trees
It is significant to emphasize here that, as discussed in Starman’s dream, trees represent ministries. Therefore in this case, Church/Temple (official and “supporting”) ministries. So God had a major issue with how those trees, however green and majestic looking they were, particularly collectively, were impeding His Temple building plans. This is all tangibly seen in the SDA Church where most of the Church’s outreach work is left to be done by “supporting ministries” which are officially ‘not an organism of the mainline Church’. God’s ideal is that all of those ministries be under the direct oversight of the mainline Church. It is only for reasons of money that the SDA Church’s sectarian and individualistic (=Capitalistic) approach has been deemed worthy and been staunchly used. And so, manifesting His great displeasure at this work impeding ministry model and approach, God sends a “great and mighty” wind, which, from what was discussed earlier in this post on the 4 Winds, can here singly be either an economic wind or a religious wind, and it began to topple over those spurious Church ministries. And with them being evergreen trees and not even fruit trees, they clearly were indeed “fruitless”, being even not capable of bearing (true) fruit. And so God “Shakingly” (with wind being a key implement for a Wheat Shaking winnowing process) had those “cumberers of the ground’ (=Luke 3:16-17) cut down in a violent and “strifeful” (=winds) way. As and represented in the dream by them falling over each other, the toppling of one of those spurious ministries affected other standing ones. So they were not as individualistic as they thought.
Interestingly enough, a symbolic understanding can be seen here with the “human” (vs. Spiritual = 1 Cor 2:6-16)) developments which transpired here in the establishing of those ministries. Indeed “man and “the workmanship of man” is most prominently being seen here instead of even God’s Fruitful Ministries. And so the scenario in the episode of the healing of the blind man in Mark 8:22-25 can be seen to be speaking here with its “seeing men like trees” when being (still) half blind, and that because Jesus had not completely done the “eyesalve” healing. So by being at least half blind the “man” and “the work of man” was being claimed to be “God’s ministries”, which is still short of the most foundational structural Truth involved in God’s Pillars. Therefore it is further symbolic to see here an allusion to the “blind state” of Laodiceans, and thus collectively the Church of Laodicea, and also Jesus offering his healing eyesalve (Rev 3:17-18). But he apparently can only partially heal Laodicea which leaves them still “clinically” blind. And so they do pursue a completely unBiblical course in order to try to expands God’s Work upon His Mount Zion, and according to their (worldly wisdom) plans, policies and ways. So that wayward Temple Construction and Mount Zion establishment plan, which are rebelliously rejecting God’s full Sabbath Message (Isa 58; Matt 25:31-46), could definitely not be allowed to stand, particularly as it will end up misleading many other trusting/relying ones to their utter destruction. (Cf. EW 68.1-69.1).
An Unnatural, Unquenchable Fire
And then, as stipulated in the Shaking of Luke 3:17, fire was then somehow kindled to be used to completely burn those trees. With those being evergreen trees, the simple hard striking of them together, as in rubbing stick together to make a fire, would not have produced that fire. So the fire had to be of a supernatural source, moreover as it went on to completely consume those evergreen tree which is naturally not self-sustainedly feasible. So, as also stipulated in Luke 3:17 and “unquenchable” fire, i.e., one that is energetically sustained until there is nothing left to burn, was used here by God. Indeed a green tree could not be so completely burn by natural means/fire (cf. Luke 23:31)
False Latter Rain
The characterizing of the wind in Peters’ dream as a “great and mighty wind” as well as the thematic link to the Early Rain Fire (see LDE 184.1-4) alluded to in Luke 3:16 point to a strong spiritual relation to the Pentecost events in Acts 2. However since that fire ends up adversially affecting its receivers, it clearly is the prophesied counterfeit False Latter Rain which is to fall on, typologically also, the SDA Church before the True Holy Spirit Outpouring. (GC 464.1) And just as SDA’s are looking for the Latter Rain outpouring to ‘seal their fate’ so to speak, it will indeed be the sealing impetus which will drive them to complete consummation.
The Replacements
J Lynn Peters understood from he dream that after this thorough eradication and consummation of those trees which she “was impressed” were SDA Church leaders, which technically is the same as ministries as it is various Church leaders which are also involve and leading/directing both official and “supporting” SDA ministries, and was also impressed that the many people walking along with her on the road at the bottom of a great plain, and “going to and from many different places” were [lay church] workers “on the roads of life”. She also was impressed with not being afraid to take “positions” in the Church, which comparatively involves ‘standing for the truth’ despite not being in a prominent (=high plateau) position in the Church. Now all of these themes are involved in a 1908 vision that EGW had, see here, which showed that God would enter into, thorough and most (physically) destructive “whirlwind” judgement with those in the Church who were merely “seeking position” (as compared to ‘taking positions’ in the sense of standing up for what is true and right.) So just as it was the leaderless laity which had to reorganize themselves after that judgement of God, so it was made to be understood in Peters’ dream.
So with all of those Biblically valid points and its parallel themes to several other valid Bible and SOP revelations, it can be seen that this dream of Peters was indeed valid, and pointedly depictive of God’s Shaking of the SDA Church.
[As stated earlier, see any more discussions on probably all of those above three dreams and the “secondary” interpretations of them presented above, starting here in Starman's forum thread].
My Father’s Dream Vision
Back in this bio-post, I had mentioned in passing, in its first section, a dream that my father had had in early 1970 and which had since then had a most significant and overarchingly controlling impact on his personal/spiritual and ministering life. In turn, because of the way in which this dream affected my father’s life, it also became directly influential to me, particularly in area of ‘taking Church things and Ministry work most seriously, in all “times” even if you are merely a layman and not being paid to do so. (=Matt 6:33). Upon having recently (early July 2012) sat down with my father during his visit here from Florida, to get all of the details of this dream, (which he had only twice told me of it, namely, fleetingly, as discussed later, in the Fall of 2000, and then more detailedly in September 2010), in order to post it here in this blog post, I will indeed be relating it here. Since the first time he fleetingly told me of it, particularly given the pointed circumstance during which he “pertinently” informed me of it, I saw that it did indeed have a significant “eschatological” implication/application on top of the also included personal ones it had for him, which actually were all pointedly contributive to its ultimate significance.
By the time when I sat down with my father for this in early July 2012, I had since had much experience in both having and interpreting prophecies, dreams, visions and other direct revelations from God. (cf. 1SM 25.4) Most of these findings have been presented in this blog, and particularly in this present blog post. So I was able to perceivingly probe him on certain points he made and help him recall certain details which he did not personally find significant, but actually were. Foremost of all, in questioning him on how that dream came about, I helped him to notice that it wasn’t actually a dream, but a genuine vision. That is all because, he then related how he had gotten up that morning around 6:00 A.M. to prepare to go to work, and was wide awake and immediately knelt down, as usual, beside his bed to pray, when, while in the midst of his prayer, he was most consciously taken off into this revelation. That all Biblically qualifies as an outright “vision” and not a “dream”, and indeed not even a “vision of the night” which involves one being/becoming in a sleeping state vs. being wide awake. I also knew and understood that a “vision”, (even a “vision of the night”), typically, pointedly/chiefly dealt with future events whereas a “dream” mainly rehashes past (even passing) events (whether ideologically or substantively) and that in order to bring new details, information and/or light upon them, “new light” which could actually be helpful for future guidance (see some more details on these revelatory distinctions here). Having also just newly and more specifically learned some weeks priorly from my father that at the time of his dream he was not yet actively involved in lay work in the Church but was increasingly pondering it, while then trying to advance his spiritual experience with God, and that it was only shortly thereafter, when he later had become more fully involved in lay work, and fellow church members then, recognizing his pastoral giftedness, were encouraging him to go and study for the ministry, that he came to be in a sort of ‘crisis of capacity of ministry service’ and it is then that his dream pointedly and fully spoke to him and encouraged him to “keep on being faithful in bringing his little gifts to God”. [Cf. the sermon/insight on the “one talent” (Matt 25:24-28) here] So I fully saw how this would indeed be an outright vision, as it was pointedly speaking upon future developments.
But first to the, henceforth called, “vision” itself. As it started, my father saw himself standing behind a large crowd of people, -all dressed in robes, whereas my father himself was dressed in currently normal/regular clothes, and interestingly enough, seemingly, from the many that he could certainly see, all males, who were walking en masse towards a high/elevated mountain like place. He undoubtedly knew that Jesus was in, and leading that crowd and so hurried to catch up with them and also make his way through them to find and see Jesus. He actually had many questions to ask Him, pointedly with various aspects of his life then. My father did not recognize anyone in the crowd as he was making his way amongst them, and then, sure enough, he did find Jesus in the midst of that crowd and went around and stood right in front of him. My father was particularly impressed by the appearance of Jesus. He was very tall, slim, and an almost peach skin color and was wearing a long, single piece robe. At that point, just as my father was about to begin asking his questions, the crowd with Jesus had just reached a sectioned-off area leading towards that mountain. A tall forged/wrought-iron fence with striking, grid-like, intersecting meshing (as if for double security for such a fence type, as opposed to only having vertical bars) and its also tall gate stood right before them, and that crowd was just filing in through right in. Beyond the fencing, my father could see a building structure but could not make out what it was. Then, my father noticing that he did not have this right to enter in as these others did, began to excitedly, pleadingly ask Jesus to ‘also let him in’. But Jesus merely looked at him and smile saying: “You cannot come in now, you have to for wait the others.” Two more times my father pressed on with this plea, but the reaction and answer of Jesus was just the same. And in each of those three responses Jesus also added: "continue to bring me your little gifts".
Seeing by the third time that he just was not going to be allowed to enter in, what was clearly Heaven to him, as those others, and instead have to remain in this world, my father then resumed his initial intent before this sudden development which was to ask Jesus about some preoccupying circumstances in his personal life. Foremost in his questions was, as then an unmarried 26 year old, was (“what else”) a question about marriage, and pointedly in regards to a girl [space] friend of his who had just recently assisted him immigrate to Canada and he had heard that she was at that time travelling and was about to pass through Montreal and was wanting to meet him. So, having thought that this could be a prospective marriage possibility for him, he was wanting to find out from Jesus if this was according to his will. And so he hurriedly posed that question to Jesus. Strikingly to him, he could a quite terse and somewhat stern reply of (simply) “No” from Jesus. He saw that the answer was in a “don’t even thinking about it” way, with Jesus actually then promptly turning away and leaving beyond that impassable gate area. That left him quite perplexed and he could only deduce from that stern and terse answer that he was to indeed not even open up any further relational possibility friendship. Sure enough, that woman did stop by Montreal, and had asked a friend about my father and how she could see/meet him. But, and tellingly enough to my father in the light of that vision, the person she asked inadvertently strayed her away by saying, as he honestly thought then that my father was not actually in Montreal anymore. So she left without meeting him. In fact she has never met, nor spoken with, him since, and to this day.[29]
Now my father immediately saw pertinent things to his immediate life in also the other elements in that vision. First of all, he saw that it was probably because his life then was not fully right with, or acceptable to, God that he was not allowed to enter into Heaven with that group. And so he began to make some changes in his life, more having to do with more deeper spiritual devotion and church dedication, rather than any actual (knowing) sinfulness, per se, and repenting. Most important to him was the threatening danger he felt to his spiritual life from his newly begun life in the (advanced) Western world, having immigrated there a few month earlier in that 1969-70 winter, and all of the temptations and distractions that that life could bring. So he became vigilant to not let these new life surrounding detrimentally affect him. With the vision also involving seeing Jesus face to face and even being directly given a mission by Jesus, it gave my father’s life an “appointed purpose”, feeling now like, interestingly enough, the Apostle Paul, that he had been specially commissioned to do a certain work, though then not sure of exactly what. But this all led him to seek to live an exemplary Christian Life which all naturally translated in others, such as his local pastors to entrust him with Church leadership Work, which in turn increasingly all contributed to his soon and later Lay Pastoring developing.
He also understood the “little gifts” statements to be referring to tithing and offerings, and so endeavored to be most faithful in that area, but that was still odd to him since he had not been unfaithful there. It was not until later, when he had become involved in lay ministry work and people then were trying to get him to go and study to become a pastor, that he then saw how that “little gifts” statement manifestly applied to that situation, especially as, as others were seeing, given the great success of his lay ministry efforts and work, this formal training and pastoral position would surely produce ‘much larger gifts’. Interestingly enough, as discussed above here, the SOP shows how our tithes and offerings to God are to involve much more than merely financial giving, to also be a dedicated “missions” service of own’s self, with true “missions” work (whether local or foreign) being inherently are “self-sacrificial”. I.e., one could actually do something else than that missions work, and that would actually be more financially and/or personally profitable to them, but they instead choose to work as “slaves/servants” (as Paul did) for God. (See this sermon on this type of “slave” service to God).
So that prior “little gifts’ insistence by Jesus made him clearly understand then that it was not God’s will that he should pursue that formal ministry course. So he since then sought to be most faithful in the laymen’s work lot that God had “insisted” he remain in.[30] There indeed is no best place to be than right in the midst of God’s (particularly, expressed) will. Had my father chosen a ‘formal pastor’ course, it would no doubt have had a much different overall impact on my own life and spiritual experience, starting with the fact that I would probably not have been increasingly impressed by his resolute devotion to Church Work, as it then would have been “his (paid) job”. In fact, what was most striking to me growing up is that while my father was struggling to find a job following losing his job in 1982 in an unjust/harassing decision by his immediate boss[31], (and my father did not find another regular job until he found one (through my help) in 1995-2000), the work of the Church was never affected at all, particularly in terms of enthusiasm, which frankly, from what I could see, was not the same in regards to him trying to find secular work (with him even going back to University to study Transportation Administration). I could indeed, particularly in knowing retrospect now, could see how he was all this time endeavoring to seek to be as faithful to that dream’s imperative as possible, by not permitting his personal circumstances to affect his faithfulness in his lay ministry work. And pointedly did have a striking impact on me, one which has lasted even to this day. And, moreover, even when my father was engaged in full time secular work, his Church Lay Work, particularly the quality thereof, did not diminish. So that also had an impact on me.[32]
Now my Father also readily understood the access-denying part of the dream where Jesus told him: “You cannot come in now, you have to for wait the others” to be related to Paul’s statement in 1 Thess 4:13-15ff in regards to ‘the living not preceding the dead ‘. But what my father did not then further ponder not question was, if those who were entering in with Jesus were not all of the redeemed, I.e., there were still others to later come, then who were they. I.e., if ‘the living would not be preceding the dead’ and obviously, by contextual implication, the dead would not be doing so, then ‘who were these’ (hint: Rev 7:9, 13-17) who were getting this ‘early access’ into heaven, and that, as depicted, before Christ’s glorious return (1 Thess 4:16-18). More on this implication later.
And so this is all how my father had, and has, been seeing the meaning of his vision, but delving more deeply into the Biblical themes and symbols involved, and the certain pointed circumstance when he first mentioned it to me, I have seen, and now more concretely, that, as will all of the other revelations discussed in this post, there is a secondary application to it, one which had a more wider implication than a personal one as in its primary application.
Secondary Application of My Father’s Vision
Now, as I have said, it was upon the first time that my father mentioned this vision to me in the Fall of 2000, and the particular circumstance then, which first made me perceive that there was something prophetic involved in it, and that it was pointedly speaking to my situation then, (and still even now). As related in passing in the first section of this bio-post, and the later here, and also in this other blog post, I had then been working on trying to establish an Institute of Biblical Research Campus (=WBSC) given the many works that can, and actually still need to, be done in this field. At that time in 2000, I had already drawn up a topographic sketch of the planned Campus. (See in this document [pp.112-113] - all henceforth references as [pp.???] are references to that online PDF document). Then shortly after, I was having a conversation with my father on the phone and I shared these plans with him, but, and frankly, to my increasingly irritated surprise, his view of them were rather disdaining, in that he, speaking from a layman’s perspective, was not seeing it as important to engage in such works for deeper/scholarly works. With me knowing all the benefits that such works could do, particularly in convincing people who did not know/believe in the Biblical Truth of the Remnant Church, I couldn’t understand that dismissive reaction, particular the non-desire to try to understand its need, even though I was trying to explain it as best as I could. [And to be quite fair, as seen in a similar response by the SDA’s North American Division on this project’s proposal which I had then sent a while before that conversation with my father [p.117 - pre-August 25, 2000 & pp.77-80 September 3, 2000], but they had not yet responded to [p.279 - December 5, 2000], there indeed exists a similar, relative dismissive degree of disdain for such involved work at every level of the SDA Church, from layman to its foremost scholars. Indeed, as recounted in my bio-post’s (Section “Where’s the Proof??!”ff), I had first encountered this “need of nothing more”, Laodicean attitude, while at Andrews University and working of a more precise and documented interpretation of the 70 Weeks. So that is all an entrenched position of the whole Church at large, and I have seen that at its root is a trait of ‘jealousy and competition’ (=Ezek 8:5-6) (spuriously “christenedly” deemed to be “zealousness”, even, vacuously a ‘zealousness for a soon Second Coming’ where it is mindlessly believed that any such works will actually delay the time of Christ’s Return!???), where, most basely involved, if someone does not themself come up with such an idea, then the default reaction is to put it down, especially if it is going to moreover require an assisting sacrifice of their part to help bring that other person’s idea to fruition.] Well finally, I, (as it is said), albeit, (as typical), controlledly, ““snapped””, (and as still seen today, e.g., in here, I have very little tolerance for such an indolent dismissive attitude as in incontrovertibly involves spuriously not doing all that can be done to help others to objectively see and Biblical Truth), and as I retrospectively recall, the only time I got that angry at my father, and proceeded to shoutingly, furiously tell him, moreover as I was seeing that he was deferentially using the non-response by the NAD to claim that all this was not at all necessary: ‘well when this project will be done, and you and all these others will then see its great benefit, I won’t let either them or you into that campus, and even if you would come to the gates of that campus. I had pointedly made a references to a front gate of the campus, because I had recently, upon overlooking my completed campus map sketch plans, seen that, given the fact that people would be living there, who moreover would be working to present unpopular truths, and that there would be costly computer equipment on the planned campus, that it would best to protectively fence in the entire campus, and having found the details of such fencing on the internet with a company which provided this service, I had then downloaded that fencing info [pp.309-311], mainly to calculate how much it would cost if we instead bought the, even raw material and put up the fence ourselves. And as that encircling fence only had one public gate entrance at the front of the campus, [see in p.113], it was there that I was envisioning the scenario which I had told my father.
To my surprised, my father did not immediately say anything in reply when I had said that, whereas before in the discussion, he would immediately, calmly with something, even, in my view, “anything”, which had only served to further infuriate me. I then was also too furious to add anything thinking that perhaps I had then pained my father by that explosive tirade. Well when he finally spoke, it partially left me stunned, yet I was just still fuming then and saw in his response a vindication of my reaction then, and punctuated what he said with a non-beat missing, terse: ‘well, I told you so’, as my father then said...“Well I had a dream of something like that happening”. He then proceeded to tell, with me asking, about his dream (actually now understood vision), related above summarily then saying that: ‘He had dreamed that a tall majestic person which he knew was (i.e., could only be) Jesus, had refused him entrance at a gate, while others were going through, and had added [just as I had here] that he would have to wait for the others.’ Immediately I understood the applicable meaning of that revelation here/now, particularly as I was understanding that I had decided not to allow my father to enter that campus pointedly because he was being so deferential to the disdaining/indifferent non-response, decision of the SDA Church/NAD, which then also included the similarly non-cooperation in those plans by several SDA College/University Religion Departments. [see pp.81-90, 117]. To me, this all said that, as I had already concluded, that the present generation upon whom a “passing of a possible Second Coming time” would occur, as God would then been working for a prolonged time, would actually be “victims” of the spurious decisions of (deferentially) “trusted” SDA Leaders then.[33]
The “higher” understanding then by both of us that ‘a fulfilment of that vision of my father’s had (also) occurred then’, actually caused things to be seen in a divine perspective here, and the prior tension in our discussion subsided. I, and probably him also, was actually sad that ‘God had seen that this is how things should be’.[34] I then carried on my WBSC, and later, more detailed NJK Project plannings with this confirmed understanding in mind that: as stated in this June 2000 emailed messaging, (cf. here) indeed as with Ancient Israel on the borders of Canaan, that generation of “adults” who had failed God on those borders, would not be able to enter into the future, “greater works” “plans (=15MR 292.4) that God nonetheless had to accomplish.
Fully Interpreting the Vision
Now, as stated earlier in this blog post, as a genuine (initially personalized vs. generalized) revelation of God does have a pointed, and actually related, application for the receiver, it is indeed not surprising to see that my father did indeed see the above related personal applications to this vision of his. But as I also pointed out, that all in turn came to have a direct impact on my own life and ministry work, starting with the fact that I would actually be born for “Jesus’s” stern counsel in that vision prevented my father from pursuing another prospective marital opportunity. But beyond the influence that this impressive revelation came to have on me, by delving in the involved imagery, depictions and symbolism, I can see, particularly, confirmingly, in the light of the various Biblical study findings that I have arrived at in the years since now 15 years that I have been engaged in deeper Biblical research. I’ll be straightforwardly/conclusorily/“retrospectively” stating those understandings here:
The Mountain
First of all the Mountain that this group of evidently redeemed were walking towards was Mount Zion. What is geographically significant is that Mount Zion was the Temple Mount, and thus was located inside the city of Jerusalem. As shown to EGW in EW 17.3-18.2 , God has the same geographical layout in the New Jerusalem, and while many are permitted to access that Mount, there comes a “check-point” where, as Jesus stated the SOP vision: ‘only the 144,000 can enter that place, -the Temple located on Mount Zion’. That is all related to Rev 7:13-15ff, and discussed in the interpretation of ‘Uncle’ Bob above, that scene in Rev 7, involving the 144,000 and also their expanded “great multitude converts” who are now one with that initial 144,000 group, are at a first stage of a migration. Yet that is, in the Bible, a, linearly (=temporally), actually, pre-glorious-Second-Coming, outwardly/conversely expanding progression from that Temple, to Mount Zion (Rev 14:1ff) to the Sea of Glass (Rev 15:1ff).[35] Tellingly enough, in that first Temple stage, it is said that those 144,000 would have been led by the Lamb to the ‘Springs of the Water of Life’ (Rev 7:17; cf. 21:6) and it is that springs which ultimately develops into the Sea of Glass which benefits the whole world (=Ezek 47:1-12), and which all mimickly mirrors the River of Life as Crystal which flows from God’s Throne. (Rev 22:1). So manifestly, just as the saved of all of the ages were shown in EGW’s vision in EW 18.2 to already be in the Heavenly realm (in fact they evidently had all along been and had remained inside the Holy City while it had descended to Earth in that SOP vision (cf. EW 17.3)), prior to being prevented from entering the Temple on Mount Zion, in my father’s vision, he was similarly shown that he was being prevented from going beyond a gated with Mount Zion beyond that point, and with the seen but non-figured out structure beyond that fence manifestly being a Temple Structure where those seemingly 144,000 who were walking by him were going. But as seen in EGW’s vision, on that road to Mount Zion, the martyrs (and little ones) are also found there (EW 19.1). So as this gated section occurred before the actual Temple Structure entrance, this would indicate that those who were permitted to go to that Mount Zion were at least the 144,000, the martyrs (and little ones), and then those who were permitted to enter the temple were at least the 144,000, which could actually, effectively, include martyrs. (The little ones would evidently not be old enough to be functioning as priests in that Temple.)
So what was evidently being fully/intrinsically depicted to my father in his vision, by him being prevented access to that Mountain Area then, was that, though he had evidently had a right to be in the Holy City (according to EGW’s converse delineation order), as it was seen then that he was on course to meet the requirements for having that City Gates access (Rev 22:14-15; cf. 21:25-27), he was not permitted to access the area of the Temple Mount. The others filing past him to enter were evidently martyrs (with little ones) since the 144,000 will actually only be concretely constituted when Final Event will have been consummated. So, since my father was evidently not a martyr then (neither an effective one), and also of course, not a ‘little one”, with him being told that he had to wait for others prior to entering here, it all “dependingly” shown that whether or not he would be part of the 144,000, (or even a later martyr), squarely depended on these others, which I clearly see is ‘the rest of the SDA Church’. So only if the SDA Church of his generation would come to be ready to have final events effectuated, would he then be permitted to have this access as those others,-either as a martyr (Rev 14:13) or as one of the “living saints”, the 144,000.
As it was presented here, the Bible/SOP evidently teaches that people of God who are martyred at some point in the future, and prior to Christ’s Second Coming are taken to Heaven. It pertinently is quite significant to me that in this vision, my father had the impression that 1 Thess 4:13-18 was being involved in Christ’s access barring statement. And knowing first hand how conveyed impressions in a dream/vision are directly, inspiredly significant, I do see this as a key understanding here. And this would be saying that the simple dead of the faith could not have such pre-end access here, but martyrs could.
Time of Martyr Group Ascension
Also, as with Moses, that rewarding and honoring “pre-”ascension could be done on an individualized basis, but as with those risen at Christ’s death and then taken to heaven, it could also occur en masse. I would priorly have simply said that the masse of people in my father’s dream were representing an actual group of “martyred” people who had been resurrected, perhaps on that very morning in the winter of 1970, when my father had that vision, who are evidently martyrs, and were here shown to be entering en masse in heaven then, but with that Gate actually being well inside the realm of the Holy City, it can actually be that those martyrs were already in heaven. Yet their masse movement here could their advancing movement towards Mount Zion after having recently entered into heaven as a group. But it actually, and more likely been representative of a new move of God in Heaven where He then, had gathered all of those priorly, individually resurrected and ascended martyrs to start a new action on Mount Zion, which would later involve working in the Mount’s Temple, and possibly by those ‘applicably effective (martyred) 144,000 (cf. Rev 14:1). So that vision’s revelation may be showing that in the Jan/Feb 1970, God had started to do a new work with the SDA Church, and as this vision was most key to my present ministry where the further development of those Temporal Kingdom (NJK) and Temple (WBSC) plans have been further developed, then I do see all of this as being related to such a ‘new action’ move in heaven by God. In short, God was then setting up the Shaking Judgement of the SDA Church, which is indeed presently transpiring, a work which is actually being done from the prior Rev 7:1-3ff, 144,000 Sealing Work of the Third Mighty Angel Gabriel’s Full Sabbatical Message (see this post).
So it can also be more clearly seen that, as I had initially understood the very first time my father had mention this vision to me in the Fall 2000 phone conversation, my statement then of ‘barring access to even my father to the planned fenced and gated Campus of WBSC, (where a planned 400 researchers would be involved in this work with supporting campus positions being filled by any spouses and work-aged children that may also be present), that this was indeed related to that vision. Indeed the WBSC project here is key to the religious and cultural aspects of the also planned NJK Project. It thus most tangibly functions as its “Temple”. So most applicably, that planned Campus was the “Mount Zion” of the prolonged time plans of God, and also that it will take “effective martyrs” (i.e., truly self-denying and self-sacrificing cf. 16MR 32.2) to populate and accomplish those plans.
Reasoning With God
It can also be significantly seen from several examples in the Bible and SOP that when God allows someone to return on a matter more than once (EW 149-153; Abraham (Gen 18:22-32), Moses (Exod 4:1-13ff), Gideon (Judges 6:13ff; 36-40), Christ (Matt 26:36-47), Paul (2 Cor 12:7-10)) and particularly when He then responds in the same, tempered, understanding way, even if the final answer is still the same, this was all God having allowed himself to be ‘reasoned with’ (cf. Isa 1:18) and all due to a honest/genuine/valid/just reason for doing so. But in the end, most of the time, the original decision/answer had proven to be the best. The only explicit exception that I could see to this was Jesus successfully convincing the Father to allow Him to come and die for mankind (EW 149-153). Yet God can also answer an initial request with a categorical “no” that impliedly leaves no opportunity for further discussion (e.g, Deut 3:26; 2 Sam 12:14-20). Those are typically for situations where blatant/knowing sin was committed. In my father’s dream the “Jesus” figure had permitted himself to be asked three times by my father to be permitted access with those other one then entering, but each time he was denied, and that in the same gently understanding tone. I am seeing here that some persuading was applicable, but in the end of those “arguments”, the initial decision was deemed to be the best. On the other hand, when my father asked about a prospective marital relationship with that woman who had helped him emigrate, the answer was a stern “do-even-think-about” type of response which indeed made it clear that it was pointless to attempt to do any pleading here. A similar conduct is seen in the typical parent-child interaction. At times a parent allows a child to ask for the same thing more than once and each time gently responds, even if it is a denying answer. But in other times, the initial answer is so stern and categorical that the child understand not to even bother asking that question (ever) again. And so, in my father’s vision, this development manifestly was because there was a possible alternative answer to his request to be granted that access then, but as there were better, other plans (i.e., “the little gifts”[36]), it was denied. Then, as a marriage with that other woman would manifestly have been spiritually detrimental to my father, (not to, at least personally, mention that I wouldn’t have been born), the answer there was a categorical no.
Vision While Praying
As a retrospectively significant element in that vision of my father, it is telling to me that he received it as he was personally praying. To me that reminds me of the Biblical instance when Peter received a vision in Acts 10:9-10 while also personally (i.e. himself then) praying (see AA 135.1) (Probably Peter had decided to have a season of prayer awaiting for the food to be made ready). As the SOP states: “The time had come for an entirely new phase of work to be entered upon by the church of Christ.” (AA 136.3). And so, as mentioned in passing before, I see that at the time of my father’s vision of Jan/Feb 1970, God was similarly beginning to usher in a new phase in His Remnant Church Work, namely the Sealing of the 144,000 from all of the tribes of Israel. Hence that ‘occurrence-similar’ vision as a special work towards the Gentiles would similarly be done by Peter. It is most telling to me that my WBSC efforts are in order to most objectively, transparently and documentedly present the Remnant Message to non-SDA. Indeed my very first work towards this end, my book on the 70 Weeks, was done with that pointed purpose and audience in mind, as I could find any SDA work which satisfactorily, it at all, resolved the many proofing and interpretational holes in the common/typical way SDA’s variously present that key prophecy to non-SDA’s, who moreover have their own “fully-satisfied-with” interpretation and/or already know of the “proofing holes” of SDA’s. So that was the opening “salvo” in God’s greater work cause, which could actually be done with or without (=present and likely permanent case) the participation of the SDA Church.
Summary
So in summary of my father’s Jan/Feb 1970 vision, it not only had pointed thing to communicate to my father himself then, in its primary application, but would come to have a indirect and direct application to myself and my present 4-Faces Ministries which is the work which is to implement God’s Great Temporal, prolonged time Zion work (=Ezek 1). As explained above, all of the elements, depictions and imagery in that dream have had their spiritual and literal/applicable fulfillments, and the secondary application ones were indeed along the lines that my father, probably having been impressed by the Holy Spirit there, had straightly perceived/understood them to be during our Fall of 2000 phone discussion. And this was all a “new work of God phase” vision which would result in God’s Full Israel, presently scattered throughout the Global Christian Church, being redeemed and tangibly restored. (Rev 7)
Jeff Pippenger
I here will be discussing Jeff Pippenger’s ministry last not merely because of all of the people I named and/or discussed in some length above, I have not heard a claim fro him that he has had any direct revelation (i.e., Vision, Dream and/or Impression/“Word”), but because I have found his prophetic scheme to be fundamentally flawed, leading to all kinds of wrong prophetic interpretation claims. I’ll here be briefly discussing that fundamental flaw, and that is in his view of the supposed 2520 year prophecy of Lev 26:18 (the “7 times more” =7x360).
From solely the fact that most SDA pioneers held this 2520 year prophetic view, and I have not seen that EGW opposed any of them, then I am also seeing it as valid in itself but only in this sense: It occurred upon the time when God acted to “addedly” (= Lev 26:18's “more”) punish the 10 northern tribes of Israel for their persisted waywardness and they were then completely uprooted as a nation of God. Only Judah remained. That all transpired in 722 B.C. If you count 2520 days from there you end up in a significant enough end date (subtracting a year for the year “0” turnover) in 1798 A.D. What is significant about this end date is that this is of course when God began to formally act to turn over all of the wrongs which had been done against his national Israel, first by the apostate 10 northern tribes, and then by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact the midpoint of the 2520 years (thus at 1260 years) is 538 A.D. which of course prophetically is when the newly formed NT Israel Church, which actually included the Roman Catholic Church, was subjected, in fact to the ecclesiastical “dark ages”. And as with Ancient (Northern) Israel, it involved a large part of the NT Church being entrenchedly and fully assimilatedly lost in the surrounding pagan ways. So it can be seen that what God had started with the 10 Northern Tribes in 722 B.C. came to have a double fulfillement of two 1260 year on His (professed) people.
However in 1798 B.C., when God then acted to fully break the temporal and ecclesiastical power of the Medieval Church, it is only then that His true cause began to be gradually restored. First “Judah” was restored in the establishment of a Remnant Church, but, as seen in Rev 7:4-8 God has much larger restoration plans than just Judah. He wants to bring back all of the 10 other tribes of Israel’s Northern Kingdom (or at least a constituting remnant from each of them).
So from that Biblical History and prophecy perspective, it can be seen that the 2520 years can have a prophetic implication as understood by William Miller and other SDA pioneers (though Miller wrongly thought the prophecy started with the beginning of Judah’s captivity in what he knew then was 677 B.C.).
In this 722 B.C. to 1798 application, I do see chronological, prophetic and spiritual validation, but the error of many today such as Jeff Pippenger is to make this prophetic period much more than it actually is. Almost as an all-in-all time period, when, as with all other time prophecies of the Bible, it lost all literal chronological application by the end of the 2300 year prophecy in 1844, as the SOP repeatedly states. So, and interestingly enough, as it was shown to Ernie Knoll, in a dream (#56 - Entertainmentvs. Truth (July 16, 2011)), those who are making so much of the 2520 days/years are on the wrong track. And this is not actually because they are seeing it as a prophecy, which I also see that it was, but only from 722 B.C. to 1798 A.D., but because of all of the numerologies and also chronologies that they are deriving from it.. Indeed this all leads Pippenger to make many reapplying “set time” claims which is all contrary to the SOP’s direct counsel that this should not be done beyond the 1844 ‘chronologies end/cut off time’.
So the only enduring spiritual contribution today that I am Biblically seeing in this 2520 year prophecy is that it prophetically pointed to the time when God would actually cease to suppress his Full Israel (12 Tribes) goal, and for indeed the first time since the downfall of the Northern Kingdom in 722 B.C. He would have removed in 1798 A.D. any temporal opposition to the full restoration and flourishing of His Israel. Indeed around this time, the (then mostly) Protestant United States began to rise in power, and for a critical while, it would serve to help this Israel freely take root and grow.
Notes
[1] Which it actually could have, as, as begun to be indicated in this post, the 2300 day prophecy actually begun on the first day of the seventh Jewish month, on the Feast of Trumpets (Neh 8:1-4ff) in the Fall of 457 B.C., and thus really ended on October 12/13 1844 A.D., which means that the Investigative Judgment process (see a brief explanation of it here) began on that day (with the Judgement of the Dead probably being done then), and then on October 22 which was the Day of Atonement that year (the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month), the judgment of the awaiting living (the remaining faithful believers in the Second Advent) could have all been done that day, and the Second Coming be completed then, but manifestly Jesus had compassion on those who had not been made ready by this message, and the Second Coming was, also then, postponed.
[2] {This comment was entirely applicable prior to Tierney's engaging responding starting on June 29, 2012 (see here).} I have tried to personally engage James Tierney on his blog posts or via email, but he is manifestly doing the typical thing of, as mentioned above, people who naturally are not adequately prepared to properly handle such prophetic gift, nor, contrary to what Ellen White rightly and humbly did, not allowing the demonstrably valid contributions of others to bolster and advance their message. Or at least others which they cannot understand... nor also provedly disclaim. EGW would complement her revelations from the valid statements of even non-SDA writers, and, as seen with e.g., Joseph Bates, J.N. Andrews, Uriah Smith and A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, and would not reject these other (scholarly) contributions. But I also see Tierney’s SDA-typical (default) rejection of my Fuller Sabbath message to be purposeful, and all due to his refusal to heed the Isa 58 full Sabbath of God message, which EGW actually amply spoke about in no equivocal terms (see e.g., WM 28-62ff). So Tierney is here clearly opposing the SOP in this regards.
For people with such a stance, it is quite basely, and thus ensnaredly/deceivedly believed that ‘doing all that is possible to help those in need’ will somehow prevent the Second Coming. And so they abstain from such full, good works, instead most hypocritically directly or indirectly expending their available money, time, resources and means selfishly and self-servingly on themselves, and most fittingly and ironically enough, that is actually the reason why the Second Coming will be, and indeed has been delayed. But that understanding just can’t begin to get through the dense mind of people who have an incorrect understanding of the character of God/Christ and their purposes (John 14:9-10; 17:3-8; COL 69.1) and who thus have an “irrevocably set times” (indeed ‘no matter what they do’) approach and understanding to the Bible and Bible Prophecies (including “Signs of the Times”). All just like the helplessly blinded First Century Jews!! (2 Cor 3:4-18).
For people with such a stance, it is quite basely, and thus ensnaredly/deceivedly believed that ‘doing all that is possible to help those in need’ will somehow prevent the Second Coming. And so they abstain from such full, good works, instead most hypocritically directly or indirectly expending their available money, time, resources and means selfishly and self-servingly on themselves, and most fittingly and ironically enough, that is actually the reason why the Second Coming will be, and indeed has been delayed. But that understanding just can’t begin to get through the dense mind of people who have an incorrect understanding of the character of God/Christ and their purposes (John 14:9-10; 17:3-8; COL 69.1) and who thus have an “irrevocably set times” (indeed ‘no matter what they do’) approach and understanding to the Bible and Bible Prophecies (including “Signs of the Times”). All just like the helplessly blinded First Century Jews!! (2 Cor 3:4-18).
Relatedly here, in regards to James Tierney answering questions about his various claims, he has recently been doing a better job of being thus responsible for what he claims, and do see the discussion in regards to his initial claim of Doug Batchelor basing his Gethsemane sermon on Tierney’s Red Heifer vision. (See starting here). The factual truth of the matter is that Doug Batchelor preached his sermon in March of 2006 and Tierney did not have his vision un August of 2009 and then did not share it with Batchelor until 2009. So Batchelor was indeed not basing it after Tierney’s vision. And in regards to the striking fact that while Batchelor had prayed for guidance on the significance of Christ’s Gethsemane experience but, though he apparently received some of the sought for Divine guidance/light, God did not give Doug the Red Heifer association as He later would with Tierney, I had made the following comment (cf. here), (which for some reason priorly could not remain posted on that blog’s comments, evidently, for some reason, auto-deleted by Blogger [and not by James Tierney]:
“I can see/understand you approval of Doug Batchelor, particular in regards to this issue, but I am actually seeing something serious in this development. As you may notice throughout my blog, I am factually and documentedly not seeing that Batchelor, though he has done a lot and more than most other SDA Pastors is, Biblically speaking, making use of all of his “talents” (i.e., resources and “investing/developing/advancing” opportunities, particularly in regards to properly presenting the Truth. Therefore I am Spiritually finding it quite significant that He was quite manifestly, at least to me, bypassed for that Red Heifer Vision revelation which he could have also had in response to his prayer for wisdom on this topic. Just looking at the way in which your message is not being widely/readily received, e.g., your 1 in 30 favorable responses from those emailed SDA preachers, it can easily be seen that that “key/pivotal” vision and Latter Rain outpouring message could have been more readily presented to the SDA Church if it was Doug Batchelor who had been given that direct revelation. Indeed the message is so straightforwardly Biblical (i.e., the meaning of the Red Heifer), that it would most likely have been widely received, and even if Doug Batchelor had chosen to present it merely as a normal sermon, but especially if he clearly stated that it had been from a vision of God.
I think much can be seen from the fact that he, despite have had some inspired light on that subject, and then later contacted by you, is not, and has not actively and widely promoted, at the very least, your vision.
All this to say that, as stated in 5T 82.2, God has a knowing reason why he bypasses, e.g., prominent, popular, charismatic preachers. It seems to me all things considered on this matter that Doug is more concerned about his “life” and reputation than presenting Full Biblical Truth, and God was probably seeing that he would snub such a revelation or slightingly present it. That is all like what had happen with Hazen Foss in the 1840's and why God then had to choose the “weakest of the weak” in EGW.
So, when Biblically “testing” someone, try to put any personal or emotional sentiments aside (e.g., a desire to be accepted) and do not be afraid or “Pastor-struck”, as I was shown in a visionary “Fuller Mark of the Beast” related revelation on November 6, 2000 (see more on it here and its endnote) deliberately involving, specifically, and representatively, Doug Batchelor, to “wield God’s sharp two-edged sword” (Heb 4:9-13; cf. Jer 1:7-8).”
[3] In fact, I restrospectively like to think that God did something special to wake me up just in time to see that Second Plane Strike Live because I indeed woke up sometime just after 8:46 A.M. (the time of the First Plane Strike), and between 08:52 and ca. 08:55 A.M. (I.e., sometime after the CBC carrying, (W)ABC News coverage began and a few minutes before the Second Plane Strike at 9:02:59 A.M.). And so when I woke up that morning some time between 08:52 and ca. 08:55 A.M., I, as usual, immediately fired up my laptop then (see on page 133 in this document) in order to log in to the online stream of the Calvary Chapel Satellite Network sermons I enjoyed tuning in to then, and to my great surprise, as I had successfully log on to my ISP then AOL, its welcome page had the photo of the First Airplane Crash in the WTC tower. I immediately (somehow) figured that, though being in Canada then, that this unusual “accident” was surely being covered even through a ‘regular (network station) programming interrupting’ newscast, and so I immediately turned on the nearby TV and sure enough, live footage of the then supposed “accident” was being shown on the CBC (interrupting children’s programming*) (cf. their Newsworld coverage here), and it was just a few minutes later that the Second Crash occurred right before my [our] eyes.
* Interestingly enough, this all reminds me of the morning on January 28, 1986, a little after 11:38, when my viewing of Sesame Street that morning, (which I and my sister were then (being 11 and 12 years old respectively, were really watching to pass time, as we had had a sudden off day that Tuesday morning because of a sudden freak snow storm), in order to cover the just occurred news of the STS Challenger Disaster.
[4] If offended, you’ll have to excuse, yet understand my still gleeful relating of those details for, as, personally, a staunch non-Capitalist, Bible Christian and (native) Canadian who just could not wait to move out of the U.S. after living there for 9.5 years, I honestly didn’t, and increasingly still don’t, have any, and certainly deferential and/or “baseless”, inner incentive to have any empathy, nor sympathy against the Divinely-due fate for the U.S., for indeed its “harlotrously” historical, and persistingly present, world-deluding sins. (=Rev 17&18 -see in this post).* ....’When one likes to indiscriminatingly “dish it out” (e.g., the, literally, terroristic Atomic Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima -instantly vaporizing over 100,000+ innocent civilians, or the militaristic backing of, effectively racist Zionism), you ought to be “man” enough to “take it” when such things are thus also done to you!’
* (I actually have a hard copy of all of the major U.S./U.S. Based Networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN, BBC) continuous newscasts of that entire day and special newscasts on the next two days, (along with several other clips, videos, movies and local newscasts of the day), [see this large internet archive of global newscasts], and I occasionally do like to relive that day.)
[5] The typical and odd thing with James Tierney, (especially for someone who claims he has an EGW-succeeding/complimenting/completing message in favor of the SDA), is that he often will tell you that ‘he had a vision/dream about something’ or ‘was shown something’, but will not actually relate the exact details of what he was revealed/shown as claimed. It seems to me that he is, particularly with the “shown” claims, copying EGW who patently also did this, but (1) that was really a different age back in EGW’s time, indeed an “age of faith”, and (2) EGW was ascertainedly, widely accepted as a prophet to the SDA Church, so people explicitly trusted her words and claims (though they did not all necessarily believe or heed her testimonies). And so it would do Tierney a self-service to actually clearly state exactly what ‘he had been shown’, rather than make summary applicational claims, so that it can be objectively analysed by others, and see if it indeed translates into his application, or if it was even a valid prophetic revelation. As e.g., shown by my comments on Tierney’s dream starting here (which he actually did not apply to a wider audience, but, as many of EGW’s dreams showed, it actually did), he many times is exegetically/spiritual deficient in properly interpreting these dreams and visions of his. (I have done a fuller exegetical and spiritual analysis of that dream (see here), (and did email him a copy), and it indeed is neither limited to him only, and actually shows how he is indeed “partially”, due to implicated/entrenched “partiality” (e.g., James 2:8-13|Luke 10:37), falling short in understanding his dreams and visions, indeed revealing God’s chief and purposeful Isa 63:10; Ezek 14:1-5, 7; Lam 2:9 implication for his “prophetic” gift/ministry.
Post Script - July 31, 2012:
Well I have just completed a July 21-31, 2012, email discussion with James Tierney on his various prophetic claims, -“just completed” because, as predictably expected from prior discussion and response avoidances, when it was pointed out to Tierney that the Full Gospel mandate of Jesus Christ just could not be ignored, he claimed that I was “Satanic and dangerous”. I see that that is the treatment everyone gets who does not believe (all of his claims) and to be “at peace” with him, you have to not criticize him. Well he surely expected the impossible from me because I pay no one any deferent homage, particularly when they “pontifically” place themselves above the word of God. The problem with James is that he had been wishfully and fancifully ignoring all of those such statements that I had been saying to and about him from the start, probably hoping that I too would “brainwashedly” ignore them!?? I had said them because I had meant them, so he should have sought to engage and respond them instead. And really and why should I believe anyone to be speaking God’s will when they contrarianly claim that the “least of these” should be left to die!! Now that is the Overmasteringly Deceiving voice of Satan himself! My full conversations with James can be read in this PDF document. It includes at first my online blog post discussions with him since he has, manifestly himself, now deleted all of them. (Mindless Coward! LOL). A fuller discussion of his Conversion Dream and its interpretation was also done during our July 21-31, 2012 discussions.
[6] As seen in one of many similar supportive email responses to that message, (reposted on page 308 of this document), its message was indeed considered as being of vital/pivotal significance to/for the SDA Church.
[7] In fact, as reported here, the Palestinian Authority became so fearful of U.S. attacks that it went on to issue death threats to anyone who even merely filmed, let alone broadcasted, any celebrations.
[8] Case in point, when the Pentagon was soon after hit, it was bustling with ‘activity as normal’, indeed not at all evacuated, albeit with them, with, as stated here, two F-15 fighter jets having been (normatively) scrambled at 08:46:?? A.M. (-thus up to 30 seconds before the First Strike) to try to observe/intercept the First Hijacked Plane (Flight 11) as its transponder had been shut off, -a military action which probably would have generated some sort of default alert to some responsible department in the Pentagon [or was not, as inclusive in the 9/11 Commission’s ‘failure in response operations’ faulting findings], however by the Second Plane strike at 9:03 A.M., surely the Pentagon was either internally, or externally (i.e., by the news reports on TV) fully aware/piqued that, moreover, ‘the country was under some sort of developing, systematic attack’, yet the Pentagon itself was not then evacuated, as the White House Staff and Vice President were by 9:10 A.M. In some way this may be because the sprawling Pentagon was reinforcedly designed to operate through a theater of war, even on American soil, and so ‘evacuating/abandoning it while a, especially, domestic war was going on is manifestly not the option. So it continued to normatively operate, perhaps, from that Second Strike, under now an ascertaining bustle for effective war. However, the prime decision maker, at least the Vice-Commander-in-Chief, had long been safeguarded for potential nuclear war.
[9] In fact, as seen here, 9/11 conspiracists cite Bush’s odd (non-)reaction and non-normative inaction, as “proof” that he/the U.S. had advanced, precise knowledge of the attacks, and their extent, and were here ‘allowing them to fully happen’.
[10] As a most possible, potential, rapidly devolving geo-militaristic scenario, if, -especially upon hearing of the Second, now, as most people then readily recognized, that the U.S. was under attack, and with this attack being indeed most sophisticated with seemingly militaristic precision, George Bush, most pivotally here, had not the manifest, “calming” sense, that ‘he, as the President then, and thus America, was securely (still) in “God’s favor and plan/will”, but instead had, (actually allowed himself to) become filled with (the visibly noticeable) overt and spiteful rage and immediately pounced from that classroom, rushed back to the Presidential limousine, -the following could have begun to precipitatingly develop:
-Right from there, Bush puts the U.S. Military on REDCON 1 and begins to give military directives for an exemplary, immediate retaliatory strike, particularly, with now certain reports of other (possibly) hijacked planes for similar usage, and probably with one of these having been loaded with a biological and/or nuclear weapon, thus to try to, at the very least, dissuade any continued attacks that day.
-With passed attempts to kill known Islamic terrorist organizations, right in their training camps, with cruise missiles having failed, Bush, reflecting the then common populace sentiment (e.g., here [01:17:37-1:19:00]) to: “get them back, get them now, and get them all”, implements a just embitteredly conceived policy to immediately wipe out any known terrorist camp and, as a then speculated 50,000-75,000 U.S. civilians having been affected and/or killed in just those two WTC strikes, and: ‘make no distinction between the terrorists or the towns, communities which are giving them sanctuary’. And so, having seen a “defensive” reason/justification to ignore Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) prohibitions to, at least offensively, strike non-nuclear states with Nuclear weapons, medium to high yield U.S. Nuclear missiles (as low yield tactical nukes are deemed not sufficient enough), are immediately and simultaneously launched (in order to not allow those terrorists time to take cover or escape) upon various and any known sites in e.g., Afghanistan, Yemen, Palestine, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, parts of Indonesia and Northern Pakistan, -indiscriminately “collaterally” instantly vaporising several hundred of thousand of Arab/Muslim civilians at the same time.*
* [And in a depicting motion picture scenario on/during this above executed development, the fitting soundtrack of (Canadian Rock Band) Nickleback’s “Burn It To The Ground” would be playing in the near background! (lyrically uncensored (Live Concert Footage) music video); probably on the heels of this soundtrack (lyrics) during the preceding Military Action hubbubs:...Revelation’s Babylon...Wine...Drunkenness/Drunken Rampage...seems like a pertinently perfect prophetic, (and also temporally circularly enough), fit indeed!! (Rev 17 & 18 - see here; =RH, July 5, 1906 par. 14) # - {see at end of this note}
* [And in a depicting motion picture scenario on/during this above executed development, the fitting soundtrack of (Canadian Rock Band) Nickleback’s “Burn It To The Ground” would be playing in the near background! (lyrically uncensored (Live Concert Footage) music video); probably on the heels of this soundtrack (lyrics) during the preceding Military Action hubbubs:...Revelation’s Babylon...Wine...Drunkenness/Drunken Rampage...seems like a pertinently perfect prophetic, (and also temporally circularly enough), fit indeed!! (Rev 17 & 18 - see here; =RH, July 5, 1906 par. 14) # - {see at end of this note}
-Following the wanton lead of their President/Commander-in-Chief, indeed as called for on call-in radio shows that morning (e.g., [Full Audio] Video: here [33:15-34:49]; here [38:06-40:20]; here [49:54-50:26]; here [03:24-04:13]; {here [01:06:00-01:07:04]}; here [01:09:49-01:11:54]; here [01:16:25-01:18:59]; here [01:28:00-01:30:25]; (and cf. next day (9/12/01): here [44:23-49:51]; here [56:31-59:45])), [-God help the world if/when a “Godless” person becomes U.S. President])), a mob of many American citizens “grab their guns” and head out into the streets of cities and systematically go from known house to known house and business of any known person of Arab origin and retaliatorily kill them.
-Having become absolutely incensed at this resolute disdaining slaughter of Muslim, Islamic clerics all over the world formally declare, as in one voice, “Jihad” on the U.S., with Osama Ben Laden deciding to go all out with Al-Quaeda, declaring Jihad on the West in general, and several military capable Arab/Muslim countries like Iraq, Iran and Libya, including, up to then, non-struck U.S. friends, allies and/or non-enemies like Egypt Syria, Lebanon and Saudia Arabia, as well as several paramilitary groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO, band together as “Muslim brothers”, and decide to immediately “self-defensively” or retaliatorily strike back. And so, as usual, they decide to attack the U.S. “darling” (the derived historical root of this present 9/11 situation) Israel, and conventional long and short range missiles and rockets, begin to rain upon Israeli cities, as well as a barrage of suicide bombings and paramilitary shooting carnage in the streets from Palestinian fighters who are en masse overrunning the borders of Israel.
-Of course Israel has no choice here but to see to defend itself from particularly this sure complete annihilation, and so it sees fit to make use of the nuclear arsenal that it has developed just for such a scenario, and so it begins to lob nuclear missiles on those Arab countries.
-That only dramatically escalates the fight, and Total War is declared upon Israel to go way beyond the quasi-impression of missiles, to a concerted invasion including a swarm of fighter airplane strikes, to, at the very least, not allow Israel to survive their nuclear assault.
-With Israel having been somewhat caught by surprised by this sudden all-out, multi-nation assault, not having all of its (now) ca. 80-200 nuclear warheads then “active” (i.e., fully operational, mounted on delivery systems, and ready for immediate use), it requests the backing of the U.S. and it larger (now ca. 1950) “active” arsenal, which the U.S. most readily overtly accepts.
-In the line of bin Laden’s earlier call, the “Jihadist” paramilitaristic fighting “spills” out in other western countries with large Muslim populations and such as the U.K., France, and Germany, and many Muslim men take up various indiscriminate makeshift or formal lethal arms against the non-Muslim citizenship there, and a state of military emergency is declared in those countries as blood is literally flowing in the streets and civilian policing, even the national guard, is overwhelmed.
-Despite those heightened development the U.S. cannot convince the rest of NATO members to declare war on the Israel-attacking states. They neither consider this proposed attack on any one of those States, nor the U.S.’s initiating nuclear bombardment, as defensive, justified, or lawful. A strident rift in NATO occurs and the U.S. is left to “go it alone”. Very little is effectively left of the NATO alliance, particularly with the U.S. now all but fully withdrawn. (Rev 17:16). So the U.S. sees its only viable military option is to more decidedly and widely deal nuclear destruction to those attackingly threatening states.
-An up to then reluctant, though Northernly struck, and quite incensed, Pakistan, pushed by its Military Generals, decides to join the Muslim brotherhood banding against this, also threatening to them, religio-nuclear-genocide, and, as the only nuclear-armed Islamic State, matchingly supply its own nuclear arsenal to the here/now defensive of its Muslim brothers, and retaliates against Israel with nuclear missile strikes.
-The U.S. measuredly retaliates, i.e., bomb-for-bomb, against Pakistan, but also threatens to completely “return it to the stone age” for any heightened nuclear confrontation.
-Yet the nuclear exchange only escalates as Israel and the U.S. continue to bombard Arab states with nuclear weapons, but now seeing that, as it result of this fight, it is likely to be severely destroyed, if not completely fail as an existing/viable state, and not wanting its arch enemy India to benefit from this potential state of resulting affairs, Pakistan launches its remaining nuclear arsenal “in time” upon India.
-India responds upon the perceived launch against them by also sending nuclear bombs upon Pakistan.
-As the fighting has drastically escalated in the Middle East and Southern Asia, and with several of Russia’s geo-political and economic interests being most critically affected, and them highly suspecting here that an underlying, “baiting”, New World Order agenda is being effectuated by U.S. and the West by now overtaking all Arab (non-democratic) countries, and thus have direct/full control of these territories and their natural resources, it, in an effort to diffuse things and stop this threatening “East-ward” progress, states its intention to defend any further nuclear bombing and/or attempted invasion of Arab states.
-The U.S., fearing here the most extraordinary blow from Russia military power, with its (now) 2430 active and 10,000 stockpiled nuclear arsenal, warningly declares that it will respond to any action against what it sees as its critical “national defensive” efforts.
-North Korea’s Kim Jong Il seeing that the U.S. is most preoccupied and seemingly has it military hands tied, sees here their best opportunity to “resolve” in their favor its stalemated Korean War and decides to begin its invasion of South Korea by starting to launch its military artillery.
-U.S. Military leaders in the Region are instructed to respond and defend South Korea with any force necessary, including with (pre-authorized) ultimate deterrence, thus also with nuclear weapons.
-As, as with the WWII terroristic bombing of Japan, it is deemed by the U.S. to best try to quickly resolve/end that begun great skirmish by exemplarily, gradually bombing large North Korean cities/towns, until/so that the North Korean end their assault. So the U.S. indeed begins to do so with submarine-launched nuclear missiles.
-That only infuriates the North Korean regime and the fighting is escalated.
-Fearing now that they are all going to be similarly wiped out by nuclear strikes, most of North Korea’s remaining 20+ million citizens rush, en masse, towards China for refuge.
-Seeing that it is about to be destabilized, manifestly indifferentlly, or perhaps, deliberately/collaterally so, indeed with those North Koreans probably being likely to permanently remain in China instead of returning to a then urbanly razed, radiologically contaminated, much destroyed, and completely Western-controlled Korean peninsula, and of course then no longer having a communist(-leaning) neighbor, China sees that it is in their best interest to come to the defense of North Korea, and, deeming that the present and looming Nuclear stand off with Russia will prevent the U.S. (or other NATO) from expending the rest of its nuclear arsenal on anything else, sends a most serious warning, over-the-bow, nonetheless, nuclear strike, upon a vacant portion of South Korea, but one which deliberately sails right over Seoul.
-Seeing the en-route missile, local U.S. forces immediately (though unauthorizedly) strikes back, and on launch”, and thus “correspondingly” target and strike China in the heart of Beijing.
-China responds by directly striking Seoul, South Korea with a nuclear missile....the U.S., not expecting that China will dare escalate this now nuclear conflict, against their much larger arsenal, then shells several cities of China with nuclear weapons.... and in retaliation China does the unlikely and launches several ICBMs upon the United States itself. However with India having been the main pre-set targets of China, the hurried (re)-targeting of the U.S. with now several targets than the usual minimum causes most of these ICBM to miss their targets with only five of 50 closely/successfully/accurately striking their targets of New York, Chicago, Washington D.C., Dallas and Los Angeles.
-Total Nuclear War is declared upon China by the U.S.
-The NATO rift intensifies as European NATO Nuclear powers also refuse to assist the U.S. in this retaliatory Total Nuclear War against, even a formidably nuclear armed state, and so the U.S. is again left alone to retaliate upon China. (=Rev 18:9-10)
-A devastating Nuclear exchange ensues between the U.S. and China and all major cities in China, and several more cities in the U.S. destroyed, as China has readily corrected its prior targeting issues.
-As with several targetedly non-successful Chinese ICBM, landing in much less populated areas at best, a couple of them grossly overshoot their targeted cities of Seattle and Detroit and crossing into Canadian territory, and land, respectively, in southern Vancouver and Western Toronto.
-Canada seeing that it was a mistake decides to let it go, but the U.K.’s PM Tony Blair does not agree and, seeing it as the U.K. direct Empirical responsibility to defend its sub-territory of Canada, upon having convinced Queen Elizabeth, urges NATO to immediately retaliate upon other densely populated regions of China and what was not devastated in the U.S. strikes. France refuses to go along, so the U.K. does so on its own.
-In retaliation China manages to launch some of its few remaining, concealed ICBMs and successfully strike the London Metropolitan Area. With nothing strategic or valuable left in China to strike, the U.K. does not further retaliate.
-Russia however is increasingly seeing that a now quasi-desperate New World Order is indeed being effectuated right before their eyes with the still militaristically U.S. and the West, manifestly endeavoring, under here an adopted guise of “strict defensive immediacy”, to control now all of the “non-free”/non-democratic world. It therefore sees it as necessary to pre-emptively stake out its claim upon those now effectively vacated vast global countries and regions and also impede a U.S./Western advance. And thus it launches a surprise, “pre-emptive” ‘SIOP’-type strategic massive tactical nuclear strike on several Overseas U.S. Bases and Military Assets located in the Mid-, Southern and Eastern Asia Region, and also in NATO countries.
-With no NATO country, including the U.S. not wanting to now, escalatingly, engage in a “value” strike exchange against Russia, and with then not much “counterforce” targets outside of the territory of Russia, and knowing that any response within the Russian borders would probably result in Total Nuclear war, the Russian strategic strike is indeed successful, as it was envisaged by them, as the U.S. accepts its foreign militaristic loses and there is no response from them nor NATO, and a defacto truce is understood on this “battle”.
-However a Cold War II, even encroaching upon a Cuban Missile Crisis-like state of affairs silent standoff instantly has tangibly settled upon the world by the end of the 9/11 day (= Rev 18:8), as, given the further futility of having an actual, and by almost inherent necessity, all-out, mutually fully destructive, nuclear exchange, the U.S., and also NATO, as well as Russia “self-understand” to contend/fight for those now opened up territories using solely conventional weaponry.
-And thus the next few days and months are filled with war and bloodshed as World War III has come to develop with the several countries of the world, from e.g., Venezuela and Cuba in the Western Hemisphere and/or, e.g., Burma/Myanmar, Lybia and Turkey elsewhere; vs. e.g., Georgia, Ukraine in Asia and several paramilitary factions in Northern Africa and e.g., and/or Chechnya, “Tibet”, Taiwan and the “....-stan” States elsewhere, also trying to make their “pet” various geo-political and economic advances that they have been wanting to make against either their common foe fronts of the West vs. Quasi-Communist/Socialist States and/or sub-opponents.
-All the while the U.S. Economy is never able to fully recover from the 8:46-9:37 A.M. “hour” of the actually, then, (i.e., with God not intervening) four successful 9/11 Attacks (Rev 18:10b) [with the fourth plane Flight 93 not: having been delayed by 42 minutes on the tarmac, nor its hijackers taking an extra 16 minutes to take control of it (and thus 32 total more minutes of flight time; -and that 4th plane crashed only 12-16 minutes of flight time (=130 miles at ca. 500-630 mph) away from its target), thus with no chance of the passengers knowing what was going on and reacting to foil an understood attack, and the plane thus successfully striking its target, of probably, the U.S. Capitol Building as early as between ca. 09:01-09:05 A.M., [=at almost the same time as, or even slightly before, the second strike on the WTCs in New York City, and thus relatively long before the undetected/unhindered/unstopped strike on the Pentagon (09:37 AM)], thus before it (or the other possible target, the White House) was evacuated (which was at 9:43 A.M.)], the subsequent Nuclear Devastations it incurred, and the ongoing World War that it has created.
And so, with the “passions of men” not having been, in any way restrained, 9/11 would thus, upon one day of most devastating fighting, have easily come to start a most protracted World War III conflict and several cities of the world, including in the U.S. and other Western countries, could easily have been destroyed and thus likely hundred of millions to billions of peoples (perhaps as much as one third of the world because of those released “four angels” =Rev 9:13-15ff)) would have been killed. (= e.g., 11MR 361.1-362.2; LDE 24.3-25.1; 9T 12.1-14.1ff). But God injunctively had/has other, much more peaceful, plans to achieve/complete His Gospel work on this Earth prior to any sort of end (of “life” as we presently know it), indeed other than by a (actually possible) release of “wild, fire-smoke-brimstone-fuming/expelling, horses/horsemen” (Rev 9:16-21) initiated/spear-headed by an “angry horse”* (=20MR 216.6 =the ‘religiously incensed U.S. and (Protestant/Capitalistic) world responding to Militant Islam’s ‘peal of thunder on an unclouded sky’ (=RH, October 26, 1886 par. 11) delayed, retaliatory, judgement attack.). [* Cf. this website’s similar but inaccurate/incorrect understanding of this symbolic usage in that SOP prophecy.]
So God taming that “angry horse” here so that it would not unleash such direct and indirect destruction upon the Earth was, (and of all of the Four distinct Winds), the most critical thing to do, then, indeed ‘right at that Second Plane’s Strike on 9/11’.
In fact it can reasonably be further seen that throughout the Planning of the 9/11 attacks which started around late 1998 or early 1999 when the plans were approved by bin Laden, and the related history and events that transpired from that time until September 11, 2001, it can be seen that God was variously acting to produced the tame and pondered response on the 9/11 attacks, which e.g., could have been 10 Planes instead of 4 (and also instead of only 3 being successful), and also all, as possible, striking their distinct targets within one hour, thus contributing to a much greater national panic, as well as a thus much sooner and duly more forceful, indeed short-term and long-term, “pre-emptively defensive” response.
And as a matter of additional (assumeable) fact, since a replacement 4th Hijacker-Pilot Hani Hanjour had completed his further flight training around April 2001, there evidently was to be a Fifth Hijacked plane, -which would thus have included the White House, (through special GPS assistance/guidance), as a target, piloted bv Zacarias Moussaoui, but he was so obviously/overtly/overly mal-intentioned (see [here [08:39ff]) that he drew attention of law enforcement and was arrested on August 16, 2001 and detained on immigration violations. If he had not, then there would most likely have been 5 planes, having 4 hijackers each, (instead of the “restructured” outlay of 5 per plane, with, indicatively enough, one plane, (the foiled Flight 93), only having 4, due manifestly to the arrest of the 20th Hijacker Moussaoui).
And as a matter of additional (assumeable) fact, since a replacement 4th Hijacker-Pilot Hani Hanjour had completed his further flight training around April 2001, there evidently was to be a Fifth Hijacked plane, -which would thus have included the White House, (through special GPS assistance/guidance), as a target, piloted bv Zacarias Moussaoui, but he was so obviously/overtly/overly mal-intentioned (see [here [08:39ff]) that he drew attention of law enforcement and was arrested on August 16, 2001 and detained on immigration violations. If he had not, then there would most likely have been 5 planes, having 4 hijackers each, (instead of the “restructured” outlay of 5 per plane, with, indicatively enough, one plane, (the foiled Flight 93), only having 4, due manifestly to the arrest of the 20th Hijacker Moussaoui).
It can also be seen that the foiled LAX Millennium Bombing plot (see this dramatization) also contributed to that taming because if it had been successful in striking the Los Angeles Airport (LAX), it would have heightened the U.S. concern about domestic-reaching terrorism, and thus a more pressing desire to pre-emptively strike terrorists in the foreign camps, thus leading to the frenzied effort to ‘once and for all’ to do so, as soon as possible on 9/11. In fact, an earlier successful plot on U.S. soil and likely retaliation strikes on terrorist camps around the world would have led to even greater geo-political tensions as seen even after the much more severe 9/11 attacks where many countries still opposed a “War on Terror” and especially any “non-distinguishing” pre-emptive actions in other known or suspected terrorist harboring countries. And so the 9/11 Attacks would then have been the ‘gas on the fire’ as the U.S. then would no longer care about those countries who had opposed its previous attempts to thoroughly root out any known terrorists.
And as the ‘non-on flight’ bombing of an area of LAX may not have made a link to the modus operandi of the 9/11 plot, leading to protective measures then, that non pursued defensive course would have served to only infuriate U.S. Leaders into immediately dealing with any such “loose ends”, thus leading to this above detailed, quite likely, immediate, and thorough nuclear strike back on 9/11; -(as even then U.K.’s Prime Minister and later main Bush ally in Iraq War, Tony Blair, immediately greatly/series feared). Indeed, they would have been vexatiously acting here out of embarrassment. [Nonetheless, conversely, in the demonstrable light of God, at the very least “standing-offshly”, actually prophetically, judiciously allowing the 9/11 Event, but to the limited extent that they transpired, a successful ca. January 2000 LAX bombing c/would have heightened the U.S. terrorism alertness, resulting in a possible uncovering/deciphering/perceiving of the 9/11 plot given the actual many Intelligence-encountered indicators and tell signs...At the very least an Intelligence memo, as documented in the 9/11 Commission Report, that: ‘Bin Laden was determined to strike in the U.S.’ and also the coming across of an Al-Quaeda’s envisaged “Planes Operation”, would then certainly not have been dismissively overlooked.].
So all of these “what ifs”, and also the possibility that up to 10 planes, taking off from also the West coast and Mid-Western U.S., could have been used, showed that the 9/11 plot could indeed easily have been the ‘first cannon shot’ of/for World War III.
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# I completed an amateur (i.e., Youtube-ish) quasi promo-trailer music video, [now featured for the eschatological prophetic Point Zero Series], which is posted here, of those two scenario-emblematic/encapsulating songs (Part 1 & Part 2), which depictively includes the following related/pertinent real-life instances/scenes, as follows:
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# I completed an amateur (i.e., Youtube-ish) quasi promo-trailer music video, [now featured for the eschatological prophetic Point Zero Series], which is posted here, of those two scenario-emblematic/encapsulating songs (Part 1 & Part 2), which depictively includes the following related/pertinent real-life instances/scenes, as follows:
[11] E.g. George Bush’s expressed “doctrine”, that very night at 8:30 P.M. in a televised Address to the Nation, [03:04] that: “We [the U.S.] will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts, and those who harbor them.” could have had a knee-jerk nascent wholesale application then in an immediate military reaction.
[12] As mentioned later when discussing Tierney’s ‘Massive Israel Wall’, I similarly had an instantaneous, indeed overmastering and undismissable/undeniable impression when watching certain scenes of strife and conflict on the evening news.
[13] Precisely (with the Second plane Strike at 09:02:59 A.M.) {See a video compilation of some, and more, of such Live News segments here}:
FOX [WNYW] (Lyn Brown || Jim Ryan) [09:03:06 A.M.]: “This seems to be on purpose.” || “Now you- now its obvious, I think that... [watching a replay] -there’s a second plane that’s just crashed into the World Trade Center. -I think we have a terrorist act of proportions that we cannot begin to imagine at this juncture.” ... “Obviously uhh, suicide uhh, terrorists attacks on the World Trade Center.”
ABC (Charles Gibson) [09:03:21 A.M.]: “....so this looks like it is some sort of a concerted effort to attack the World Trade Center, that is underway in downtown New York”
NBC (Matt Lauer) [09:04:41ff A.M.]: “Obviously now... [reviewing footage and ascertaining that it was indeed a plane that had caused that second explosion] ... and and now you you have to move from talking about a possible accident to talk about something deliberate that has happened here...”
CNN (????) [09:07:07 A.M.]: [right upon second view confirmation of a Second Plane] “these pictures are frightening indeed...” (and then posits: ‘how can these crashes both actually be ‘navigational errors’, as priorly thought up to then with the first plane)
BBC (????) [09:11:13 A.M.]: “The World Trade Center, one of New York’s big landmarks, looks like its been the dir-, deliberate target...of a sabotage attempt. A deliberate terrorist attack on New York’s World Trade Center.”
CBS (Bryant Gumbel) [N/A]: [instead cautiously ascertainly questioning a series of on-site/on the street, on-air over the phone callers as to their claims of ‘intentionality and deliberateness’]
As the ca. 100 news-alternative footage collected in the documentary “102 Minutes That Changed America” most goose-bumpedly shows in one segment [ca. 12:27ff] as the fireball of the Second Plane Strike was still expandingly billowing, people were terrorizedly coming to the joint: cause-resolving & shocked-grasping, and then, bewildered panicking, already traumatized understanding that: “IT'S TERRORISTS ACTI-VI/ON...They're BAAACK!”
[14] It is most significant to expound on the pointed historical developments which underlied that Divine warning revelation given to EGW, and note the ‘instructional statement’ in 9T 13.2 where God said that ‘if the present state of things didn’t change, God himself would act to destroy those supposedly indestructible buildings. This expounding here is also important for those, even with SDA’s, who think that they is any such thing as “good Capitalism”: i.e., e.g., if a good product service is being produced then it is okay to exact, the Capitalistic-normative, more-than-enough-profits (i.e., a for-profit enterprise), for the buildings which were literally being involved in a ‘competitive race towards the sky’ around those times when that revelation was given to EGW (i.e., before 1904 (= PH090 16.4) and evidently in November 1901*) (see this NY building timeline page for New York) were literally all (relatively) “good” enterprises, namely is the sectors of: newsprint, banking and investing; various insurance, department retail (e.g., Woolworth), industrial appliances (e.g., Singer Sewing Machines), etc. Arguably the 1910/1913 57 floor/792 ft, $13.5M (ca. $314 in 2012) Woolworth Building was the “condemnation tipping point” construction in terms of this Divinely-prohibited competitive ostentatious and ambitious building enterprising. As typical with such corporation skyscrapers, the owning company itself far from needs all of the occupancy space in it and has to rent out most of it to others. Yet as also seen from the loss of the World Trade Center towers, much of that occupancy is quasi-superficial as the space used there (about 13.4 million square feet) was either seamlessly found in already available office space in the New York City and New Jersey area, or (probably) simply eliminated/discontinued/downsized, demonstrating that they were not actually that essential. (I.e., in the now ca. 11 years since the entire WTC Complex (i.e., WTC 1-7) office/commercial spaces have been destroyed, I have not heard of a frantic boom to build new office spaces elsewhere to replace that lost office real estate space. So the whole raison d’être of the WTC High Rise Complex, as it manifestly “superfluously” is in the present rebuilding, was merely a matter of “location”, i.e., the perceived pomp, pride and prestige of ‘working right the heart of New York City.’
[14] It is most significant to expound on the pointed historical developments which underlied that Divine warning revelation given to EGW, and note the ‘instructional statement’ in 9T 13.2 where God said that ‘if the present state of things didn’t change, God himself would act to destroy those supposedly indestructible buildings. This expounding here is also important for those, even with SDA’s, who think that they is any such thing as “good Capitalism”: i.e., e.g., if a good product service is being produced then it is okay to exact, the Capitalistic-normative, more-than-enough-profits (i.e., a for-profit enterprise), for the buildings which were literally being involved in a ‘competitive race towards the sky’ around those times when that revelation was given to EGW (i.e., before 1904 (= PH090 16.4) and evidently in November 1901*) (see this NY building timeline page for New York) were literally all (relatively) “good” enterprises, namely is the sectors of: newsprint, banking and investing; various insurance, department retail (e.g., Woolworth), industrial appliances (e.g., Singer Sewing Machines), etc. Arguably the 1910/1913 57 floor/792 ft, $13.5M (ca. $314 in 2012) Woolworth Building was the “condemnation tipping point” construction in terms of this Divinely-prohibited competitive ostentatious and ambitious building enterprising. As typical with such corporation skyscrapers, the owning company itself far from needs all of the occupancy space in it and has to rent out most of it to others. Yet as also seen from the loss of the World Trade Center towers, much of that occupancy is quasi-superficial as the space used there (about 13.4 million square feet) was either seamlessly found in already available office space in the New York City and New Jersey area, or (probably) simply eliminated/discontinued/downsized, demonstrating that they were not actually that essential. (I.e., in the now ca. 11 years since the entire WTC Complex (i.e., WTC 1-7) office/commercial spaces have been destroyed, I have not heard of a frantic boom to build new office spaces elsewhere to replace that lost office real estate space. So the whole raison d’être of the WTC High Rise Complex, as it manifestly “superfluously” is in the present rebuilding, was merely a matter of “location”, i.e., the perceived pomp, pride and prestige of ‘working right the heart of New York City.’
There were also a couple of quasi-uncanny things in the destructions of the two WTC towers. One was in the fact that the fire would burn out and the other was in the fact that the top collapsing ca. 30 stories managed to collapse the bottom ca. 80 structurally undamaged floors. Just watching the videos of those collapsing towers (WTC 2 then WTC 1), it can’t be understated by how “resolutely” they were completely flattened, -really as if an extra force was pushing down upon those intact bottom stories. Indeed/In fact, as validly, scientifically/engineeringly discussed in this (albeit “9/11 Truther”) documentary [06:30-25:22ff] (see also this interesting one), this odd “resolute” collapsing as if by controlled demolition, particularly the ‘as if unhindered’ and ‘“unreal” (almost) freefall’ speed of the collapsing, and even the actuality of a collapse itself, has baffled many even objective/analytic minds. And all of this was compounded by the really unexplainable collapse, and particularly way of also ‘controlled-demolition-style’ collapse of the 47-story WTC Building 7. (See at 18:36-20:30ff). An (=The) explanation for pointedly this extending development where WTC 7 came to be on fire by the ‘jetting sparked debris’ that came from the WTC 1 & 2 towers may be in the SOP statements in LDE 112.3-4 (cf. 11MR 361.1) - i.e.: ‘God [not “the U.S. Government”], through His Angels, did it (i.e., the ‘non-natural’ collapsing destructions (cf. in here))’.
So with both the “unquenchable” fires, (which SDA should know from their history that God is capable of producing (cf. Matt 3:17; Mark 9:43 (Greek: “asbestos” which interestingly/ironically enough is (today) a fire proofing/resisting/retarding construction material)) and the total collapsing which not only surprised most newscasters that day, (with most just ‘obliviously’ assuming at first, despite quite clear video evidence (pointedly with the first collapsing tower), that ‘only part of the building had collapsed), and also even Osama bin Laden (et. al.) who attributed the ‘unexpected total destruction’ to the work of Allah (see here [00:41-02:00]), could very well have indeed been aided by God (i.e. through on-site, commissioned destruction angels) = 9T 13.2 & (“Isa 30:12-14” = here [49:31-54:16ff] & here [01:04:28-1:06:21]; and ‘hotter-than-natural-fires’ = SDA Battle Creek ‘non-normal’ fires: see e.g., 4MR 367.2|SpTB06 56.1|13MR 121.1-2)!!**
So with both the “unquenchable” fires, (which SDA should know from their history that God is capable of producing (cf. Matt 3:17; Mark 9:43 (Greek: “asbestos” which interestingly/ironically enough is (today) a fire proofing/resisting/retarding construction material)) and the total collapsing which not only surprised most newscasters that day, (with most just ‘obliviously’ assuming at first, despite quite clear video evidence (pointedly with the first collapsing tower), that ‘only part of the building had collapsed), and also even Osama bin Laden (et. al.) who attributed the ‘unexpected total destruction’ to the work of Allah (see here [00:41-02:00]), could very well have indeed been aided by God (i.e. through on-site, commissioned destruction angels) = 9T 13.2 & (“Isa 30:12-14” = here [49:31-54:16ff] & here [01:04:28-1:06:21]; and ‘hotter-than-natural-fires’ = SDA Battle Creek ‘non-normal’ fires: see e.g., 4MR 367.2|SpTB06 56.1|13MR 121.1-2)!!**
* See 5BIO 136.6-138.7ff; 141.5a; 176.3; 177.1a; (cf. 5BIO 146.3-147.1; 164.1)
** Though I do not see as Biblical, even factual, the narrow claims on the Ellen White Info website in their discussing of the 9/11 and the related EGW prophetic statements, i.e., as, by 2001, New York had become much more than the Economic Capital of the United States to now having expanded its reach to the “World”, hence the “World Trade Center” plaza built there (indeed as also seen by the fact that the 2008 quasi-meltdown of Wall Street had effects, and severe ones at that, throughout the world), their expounding information on their website, namely here, here, here, and here is somewhat interesting. As discussed above, that “narrow reasoning” on that website which thinks/believe that God had only one fulfilment in mind for this SOP prophecy, thus namely, literally solely in relation to what was going on in New York City and that, in 2001, clearly does not think that (1) God can have multiple fulfillments for his prophecies, and (2) that God had actually intended for a fulfilment, in the context of a realized Second Coming, in the lifetime of EGW. It was only because, as discussed here, of the Second Coming postponement failures of the Church into finishing the work that time was prolonged, and, in actually, as discussed in this present blog post, a residual fulfilment of that SOP prophecy, and rightly in regards to the extent to which the prior NYC/U.S.-contained Capitalistic fraud and oppression had globally spread, nonetheless being influentially chiefly headquartered in the U.S., that prophecy was then fulfilled in 2001. So it was not ‘because of the sins of solely NYC, as claimed there, but, though merely as a sample (unappreciated) lesson/warning, because of ‘global reaching’ U.S. Capitalism sins....therefore, see about Rev 9:12's future “Second Woe” (Rev 11:13-14) here....
** Though I do not see as Biblical, even factual, the narrow claims on the Ellen White Info website in their discussing of the 9/11 and the related EGW prophetic statements, i.e., as, by 2001, New York had become much more than the Economic Capital of the United States to now having expanded its reach to the “World”, hence the “World Trade Center” plaza built there (indeed as also seen by the fact that the 2008 quasi-meltdown of Wall Street had effects, and severe ones at that, throughout the world), their expounding information on their website, namely here, here, here, and here is somewhat interesting. As discussed above, that “narrow reasoning” on that website which thinks/believe that God had only one fulfilment in mind for this SOP prophecy, thus namely, literally solely in relation to what was going on in New York City and that, in 2001, clearly does not think that (1) God can have multiple fulfillments for his prophecies, and (2) that God had actually intended for a fulfilment, in the context of a realized Second Coming, in the lifetime of EGW. It was only because, as discussed here, of the Second Coming postponement failures of the Church into finishing the work that time was prolonged, and, in actually, as discussed in this present blog post, a residual fulfilment of that SOP prophecy, and rightly in regards to the extent to which the prior NYC/U.S.-contained Capitalistic fraud and oppression had globally spread, nonetheless being influentially chiefly headquartered in the U.S., that prophecy was then fulfilled in 2001. So it was not ‘because of the sins of solely NYC, as claimed there, but, though merely as a sample (unappreciated) lesson/warning, because of ‘global reaching’ U.S. Capitalism sins....therefore, see about Rev 9:12's future “Second Woe” (Rev 11:13-14) here....
[15] See in this post and this one for the full and exegetical deeper understandings and eschatological application of this prophetic “hailstone” symbolism.
[16] In a related but certainly, and most obviously/clearly non-deceptive way, for one of my blog posts (this one), I entirely fabricated a “parable” to summarily, illustratively explain what I was seeing from the Bible and SOP as how the Shaking of the SDA Church would develop. It clearly, at least it should be, not be understood as something which I had seen in vision, however, I’ll briefly state here that while I was lying in bed on morning in ca. November 2009 upon having just woken up and was pondering how I was going to compose this illustrative story which for a while now I had wanted to compose, I almost seamlessly/unperceptively, indeed momentary entering into a dreaming state as I was imagining my storyline here, saw myself relating that parable during a sermon in a local church when all of a sudden, the congregation erupted in opposition to it when the saw that it was pointedly speaking about them. (All just like what happened to Jesus in Luke 4:16-30|DA 236-243). And, quite out of the blue, I then saw that it was a called upon S.W.A.T. police team which came into the Church to both protect me as I completed that sermon, with them standing in front of the Church, between the pulpit and the pews, and then to escort me out of the Church when it would be that I would leave. I “snapped out” of that evident sudden dream before I actually left the Church. So that is “spiritually” pointedly why I went on to include a similar allegorical part in that blog post parable on a ‘riot squad coming into the reception hall to deal with the then completely unruly students who had failed the Mayor’s testing of them.
[21] This commentary was originally posted in a discussion (responding to username: Shubee = Eugene Shubert {his comment are in bold}) at:
[25] {Potential OurSword-Ernie Knoll Blog Post response commenting}
[26] See here.
[16] In a related but certainly, and most obviously/clearly non-deceptive way, for one of my blog posts (this one), I entirely fabricated a “parable” to summarily, illustratively explain what I was seeing from the Bible and SOP as how the Shaking of the SDA Church would develop. It clearly, at least it should be, not be understood as something which I had seen in vision, however, I’ll briefly state here that while I was lying in bed on morning in ca. November 2009 upon having just woken up and was pondering how I was going to compose this illustrative story which for a while now I had wanted to compose, I almost seamlessly/unperceptively, indeed momentary entering into a dreaming state as I was imagining my storyline here, saw myself relating that parable during a sermon in a local church when all of a sudden, the congregation erupted in opposition to it when the saw that it was pointedly speaking about them. (All just like what happened to Jesus in Luke 4:16-30|DA 236-243). And, quite out of the blue, I then saw that it was a called upon S.W.A.T. police team which came into the Church to both protect me as I completed that sermon, with them standing in front of the Church, between the pulpit and the pews, and then to escort me out of the Church when it would be that I would leave. I “snapped out” of that evident sudden dream before I actually left the Church. So that is “spiritually” pointedly why I went on to include a similar allegorical part in that blog post parable on a ‘riot squad coming into the reception hall to deal with the then completely unruly students who had failed the Mayor’s testing of them.
All this to say that, form this experience where I ventured to (again non-deceptively) write out a completely fabricated parable (not unlike the parables that Jesus made. -Doug Batchelor is also, self-admittedly famous for making made up illustrations for his sermons), that I can also then understand how Ernie Knoll may have come believe that his, actually deceptive, story was “inspired” by God, if he also received some sort of spiritual/supernatural sign which validated that story. In Knoll’s case, that felt “validation” would actually have permittedly come from the Devil, as Knoll had boldly ventured upon his territory.
[17] A small example of this is in his Dream #37 “The Treasure Box”. Succinctly and summarily stated here, the dream’s background setting imagery of people wading in warm (=Laodicean lukewarm) water which is a little above their knees, involves an allusion to Ezek 47:4 and is specifically showing the point where God’s present Church Militant course is being halted and a deeper “loving and faithful” (=“gold”, which Laodicea needs (see here)) understanding of the Bible and SOP then needs to be done before that ([initial] Remnant Church) river (=religious grouping) can become a mighty and unfordable “movement/moving” river (Ezek 47:5). Notice also the allusionally similar actions of “returning to the banks” following that assessment (Ezek 47:6).
[17] A small example of this is in his Dream #37 “The Treasure Box”. Succinctly and summarily stated here, the dream’s background setting imagery of people wading in warm (=Laodicean lukewarm) water which is a little above their knees, involves an allusion to Ezek 47:4 and is specifically showing the point where God’s present Church Militant course is being halted and a deeper “loving and faithful” (=“gold”, which Laodicea needs (see here)) understanding of the Bible and SOP then needs to be done before that ([initial] Remnant Church) river (=religious grouping) can become a mighty and unfordable “movement/moving” river (Ezek 47:5). Notice also the allusionally similar actions of “returning to the banks” following that assessment (Ezek 47:6).
[18] An interesting, and in many cases, surprising, quite large listing of “corrupt SDA leaders” (and Institutions) is given in an Ernie Knoll ministry document [PDF] (see pp.419-439|440-465 [PDF pp. 428-448|449-474]) And the heretical/wayward sin of many of these leaders is indeed their belief/adherence to Spiritual Formation.
[20] As it can be pertinently seen throughout this blog, I am honest/forthcoming about my view on Contemporary Christian Music [CCM] (see here; cf. here and this related testimony) of various types (see e.g., here, here, and here.) And this would seem to be me at hypocritical odds with a claim to believe in a divine origin for the testimony of Ernie Knoll’s prophetic dreams but seemingly not accept the statement in his Dream #3-25 where Jesus explicitly, clearly states that ‘certain types of music, namely “Christian Rock”, are an “abomination” to Him and His Father’. But the fact of my experience on this is that I have long be led to put such type of worship expression in their proper perspective, chiefly revolving around the fact that it is certainly not “the perfect” and that “this too shall pass”. I.e., there would be no need/reason or validation in worshipping God with/through such sounds, or even expressions when we will be in Heaven. In fact, I have seen a similar progressive realization with many CCM artists that I have been following, namely that as they are Spiritually advancing in their knowledge and experience in Christ, their sound has similarly mellowed out. (E.g., from hard rocking compositions to more explicit praise and worship ones. I recall the then lead singer of the Christian rock band, the Newsboys, relatedly saying in CCM Magazine that: ‘Jesus Christ came to serve....being in a rock band is not serving’. So there indeed is a better ideal to attain in regards to worship and in the present times we are in, some good can still be achieved, particularly with those who do not know any better, with CCM worship expression. And the “abominable” aspect here in regards to certain types of CCM styles may all be prophetically, typologically related to the Ezek 11:14-25 “Israel exile” circumstances involved there. (And as also stated in that Knoll testimony, I personally have long found the typical mantra-repetition of some praise and worship songs, as also done with some gospel songs, to indeed be on a quasi-hypnotic level. Evidently the underlying principle is anything that involves mindless/rote/“out-of-(right)-mindness” communication with/worship of, God is not consider as acceptable by him. (=Matt 6:7))
As I stated in this testimony, the CCM scene served as a stepping stone for me to get away from the music of the world, particularly in what was being sung about in those songs, which I most was oblivious to. In CCM songs, I finally found, as it self-touts, music with a Message and that cured my prior secular music issue. Also, I personally have seen and understand that God did use my attraction to the CCM world to most tangibly see and understand the work that needs to be done in regards to helping others to properly understand what God’s Biblical Truths are, and it indeed is CCM which got me into Christian Ministry. God’s way of getting the culturally “racistly” biased Peter to even go and witness to a Gentile was through the use of what was clearly an abomination to God (Acts 10). And while that did not mean that Peter was now to eat those proscribed foods it got him to see through the abominable surface of Gentiles to their present and potential inner godliness in the genuineness of their pursuance of religious truth, even if at that point quite erroneous. I indeed see the same thing as applying, to actually various practices in the Christian world and really it is only the Truth as it is in Jesus which will come to make us what we should be (John 17:17).
[21] This commentary was originally posted in a discussion (responding to username: Shubee = Eugene Shubert {his comment are in bold}) at:
[That public discussion forum has moronically, unwarrantedly and unjustly decided to make all of my ca. 1800 posts there only visible to myself. =Patent resorting to strong arm tactic by heathens, when incited by vexed spurious believers when they are exposed as being in great error.]
Shubee: “You don't know what you're talking about, although I have no objection to your application of Ezek 14:9 to Ernie Knoll.”
Oh yes I do...It is you who, as usual, merely “moronically”/ “naturalistically” views things through your fundamental lack of Spiritual discernment, on top of proper exegetical ability:
Ezek 14:9 NASB (key terms in CAPS): “But if the prophet is PREVAILED UPON to speak a WORD, it is I, the LORD, who have prevailed upon that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.”
The word translated here “prevailed upon” literally means “to be simple”. It involves a returning to a “natural state” as compared to the higher ideal and ways that God has already shown. So God would actually be making that prophet go against His fundamental aim here of not revealing “formal/official/judicial (new) thing” (=Heb. dabar) to these wayward people and “become simple” towards them and tell them what they “plainly” wanted to hear from God despite their rebelliousness (Ezek 14:1-3)
So from the application of that “principle” is your answer as to why Ernie Knoll is not revealing anything “new” or “authoritative” to SDAs, but has just been given visions which restate and rehash what has already been fundamentally revealed to SDA’s...SDA’s do not deserve any such “New Light” (e.g., Lam 2:9b).
And, typically enough, when Ernie Knoll tried to be spiritually “plain/simple” with SDA’s and invented the Candace and Great Commission stories towards that end, it is seen in his dreams that God did not correct him on those known fabricated falsehoods, but as seen in his December 8, 2007 dream (#26. A GREAT WORK), was just let to continue believing in that lie of his. And in that way Ezek 14:9 was literally fulfilled in Knoll, stemming actually from his own deliberate waywardness, and thus God did ‘remove’ him from being at all accepted by SDA’s. (A pending/coming “destruction judgement” which may have actually been revealed to Knoll in his prior, October 25, 2007, #25. PRAY FOR PROTECTION! Dream....But look what is the actual result of this performed Judgement action of God: Ezek 14:10 - They TOO are left to also bear their iniquities...and now without any sort of (accepted) light from God at all. (=Zech 13's type of “stumbling” Judgement =purposefully effectuated upon Israel through Christ (cf. Isa 22:15-21-24)
And as in Zech 13:9 and Isa 22:22 the resulting, restored “Israel people” spoken of in Ezek 14:11 are the “remnant” which would have survived that all-inclusive judgement of God...(=Isa 6:13). This SDA Church’s Ezek 9 (see here) Judah Shaking Judgement is indeed to serve as an object lesson for the remaining 11 tribes of God’s present day Israel, the Global Christian Church who likewise also have those same and/or similar abominable cherished idols. Then will God’s Ezek 34; 36; 37 full restorations be possible...
[22] This Dream #64 of Knoll’s came 249 days after his last Dream (the quite ominous enough one, in regards to the future of the SDA Church, #63 Other Sheep - Apr 7, 2012, speaking in specific details about the sifting of the Church (see Biblically validating discussion commenting starting here). That 249-day interval was the 3rd longest since Knoll began having these (public) Dreams, with the longest interval being between his 2nd (“Spring 2005”*) and 3rd (Dec 10, 2006) Dreams = 629 days; and the second longest being, quite comprehendibly, after, and through the almost year long duration and fallout of, and for, his above-discussed lying Candace Testimony episode (the 304 days between Dream #34 (Nov 12, 2008 - Sep 12, 2009).
* I can personally identify with, and understand, the fact that Knoll did not record the specific date of his first two Dreams, just generally stating that it had taken place in: “Spring 2005”. I also did not record the date of my first vision in June 2009 particularly for having been told therein ‘not to share it with anyone’; and also knowing/thinking that there would be more/others. However by the time that I had my second vision on August 20, 2000, I had since had over a year of further various studying, experiences and Divine signs which all had explained to me that God was indeed up to something quite prophetic in all of this, and so, I not only recorded the exact date from then on, but also almost always, the precise time of the day, -an added specification which actually came to be overall quite helpful, (perhaps even, in a couple of cases, substantively significant).
[23] Corroboratingly quite telling to me was the fact that, with this Dream of Knoll having chief/background theme of Revelation’s Seven Trumpets, that, -and as indeed Spiritually incorporated in that dream to Knoll, it was said by Jesus that ‘these Trumpet messages had begun months ago, in February of 2012’ for that is the date when I published my own detailed exposition keyly involving the Seven Trumpets, (see this post and this one). [They were published, after over 5 months of research and writing, specifically on February 29, 2012 -as stated in this blog’s TOC post, the posting dates which appear on the blog with each post can, and for preferred blog post-ordering purposes, are, actually manually set and therefore do not necessarily indicate when a post was actually posted. Readers who had been using Google Reader to read this blog will however see the actual date when posts were published. (Cf. the ([-for reasons of (PDF) file/document upload size limits]: the first page of the) archived blog post notice emails from Blogger for Part 1 and Part 2)] The resulting messages in these “Primer of the Plagues” studies, validly involve/incorporate my prolonged time light/understanding of/for “Final Events”, and, also in harmony with the statement that was made in Knoll’s dream about people having new views on the Trumpets which contradict prior light/understandings, it can be seen that my resulting understandings actually do not, per se, contradict prior ones, but as with the hermeneutic principle in regards to unfulfilled OT Israel Prophecies for/in the present NT Israel era, rather involve spiritual applications which actually build upon, as from an enduring template, the prior literalistic understandings and applications, all in order to provide their secondary application for this prolonged time.
And also interesting, given the fact that, as noted here, renowned evangelist/preacher Walter J. Veith had from at least 2004 presented a (Historical/ist) view of the Seven Trumpets which I have seen more than less most closely match my own presentation, (i.e., for their prior, Historical fulfilment), then this perceived inspired corroboration of my Seven Trumpets view through Ernie Knoll is actually pointedly in regards to their present, Eschatological application.
Interestingly enough my “Primer on the Plagues” posts serve to help people know how to avoid receiving the plagues and thus inherently how to be part of the “First Supper in Heaven” also related in Knoll’s “Final Events+” Dream. And with this Supper being Rev 19:7-8 “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”, and with, as Jesus had priorly taught in the Wedding Feast Parable (Matt 22:1-14), the key to being part of that Supper is to have Christ’s Robe of Righteousness (cf. COL 307-319), which Rev 19:8 specifies are “righteous works” (=Matt 25:31-46), as expounded on in this post!
[24]
[24]
[26] See here.
[27] Relatedly, I find it most head-shakingly comical to read here, the similar “whistle-blowing” type of statements against the plans and aims (though not the actual ones) of the NJK Project as I accurately know both why this project is being pursued and how it will Biblically be effectuated. To succinctly respond to that false/spurious claim here:
“I would shy away from such a project for that is getting ever closer to Dominionism”
-When one’s goal is to satisfactorily and sustainably help people in need, which includes up to 70,000,000 would-be aborted infants per year, and all of that fully entails, and none of the countries of the world today care to do this, then establishing, even literally building, a new country, in the only freely habitable remaining part of the world, namely the Ocean’s International waters, then this project is not at all a luxury or ambition, but an incontrovertible necessity. The goal here is not to have a (Christian) country just for that sake in itself, but to adequately provide life saving ministry. But people/SDA’s who actually do not care as they should for people in even vital needs, even “to the least of these” (Matt 25:45) just cannot begin to, even spiritually, conceive of this notion.
“ - to reestablish a theocracy on this earth without Jesus. It just will not work.”
-That is just as vacuous as saying that a Church will be established without Jesus. Jesus will be with His people wherever He is truly, and freely, wanted. You just have to invite Him in and He’ll even be present through, at least, the “Testimony of Jesus” (Rev 12:17; 19:10; 22:6-8)! Only the faithless would limit God here. Furthermore, as with a Christian Church, anyone not wanting to live in the dedicated Biblical Christianity Environment of the NJK will be facilitatedly free to emigrate and relocate.
“Our kingdom is not of this world it awaits us in heaven.”
-It is “delusionedly” strange how those who do not even manifest any intuitive compassion interest in doing all that can actually be done to help people who are even in vital need, -especially if it is requiring any level of sacrificing on their part, always believe that they are sure, prime and perfect candidates for the Kingdom of God, in Heaven moreover....They are instead “surely” in for a surprise, even a ‘teeth gnashing shock’ (e.g., Matt 25:45-46; EW 50.3; DA 825.4). All part of the, by now, long skewed, deficient “Fruit Loops” Theology of SDA’s in regards to their entrusted Gospel mandate, among other Theological issues.
[28] The following comments [as is] from an email discussion in regards to the Biblical case for a tangible/thematic difference between dreams and visions may be helpful here. (My responses are not in bold):
-Dreams and visions are both for future events to occur.
I can understand your belief that both visions and dreams relate to future events, however from my own experiences, as well as those of others, other top of EGW, (e.g., see in the Dream of, and my interpretation of it, Steve Starman on my “Testing the Spirit” blog post*. There is a pivotal point in his dream where it most strikingly shifts from a dream to a vision. As stated there, I have also repeatedly and consistently experienced such drastic shifts during a revelation.)
Exegetically speaking, the Hebrew word in Joel 2:28 for the “visions” of young men and women is “vision of the night” (Strongs #2384) An outright (fully awake) “vision” like the one Daniel had in Dan 10 is #2377 (see vs. 14) which may also contain distinct tangible “appearances” (#4758/#4759a) (e.g, Dan 8:14-15). That is also why “dreams are dreamt” while asleep, but visions are (lucidly) seen.
Most determinative here, in terms of what they focus on, I have also carefully tested and attested that dream do focus on past/passing events while visions speak of (new) ones to come. That is why they distinctly occur in a revelation as the dream portion is used to rehash past or known details, even if in a new, future light or context, but then visions (or “visions of the night) portions present entirely new information/plans of God. Scientifically speaking, as dreams are manipulatively (either by God or a person for natural dreams) made up of what is already inside a person’s head, then a person can be asleep and have these known/past thing brought to the forefront of their minds. However for a vision, they literally have to see those new things so they must be either lucid or outright awake to “see” these things. This all is seen by how prophets in vision deliberately have their eyes open, as seen with EGW. EGW often spoke of these distinct types of revelation of dreams, visions, or the in-between/half-awake type of a “visions of the night”. From what I read/perceive, EGW’s revelations and new light on Biblical episodes all occurred via dreams but her views of pointedly and entirely new and future developments were through either visions of the night or visions.
-You have your view on these & I have mine. Both are about Future events. Note the dream that Daniel had about the seven lean/fat corn/cows. Dreams I do not believe they r in a semi- lucid state, they r in a full dream state. Also note the dreams of the Sunday laws are Future events, since they have not occurred.
We may indeed have different views here, however I am seeing more and more much empirical support for understanding those differences between (strictly speaking) dreams vs. visions. And in regards to the good example you brought up about Pharaoh’s “dream” in Gen 41, I am actually seeing this as, more technically, as explained in Job 33:15, a “vision of the night” -which occurs when people are asleep while outright visions occur when they are awake.
I am seeing that those types of “dreams” as “visions of the night” are an in between type of Revelations between dreams and visions and involve a prior thing being presented in a new/different light, Whereas a “dream” involves merely a presentation of an old understanding, and, as in Ernie Knoll’s case, it can be presented in contemporary depictions.
In Joseph’s “visions of the night”, e.g., Gen 37, the “already transpired fact/truth” was a take from the already present state of injustice and hatred between Joseph and the rest of his brothers. If they were not already jealous and hateful of Joseph, then it probably would have been that God would have allowed all 12 of them to play a shared role in the greatness that Joseph achieved in Egypt. But because of their unrighteous state, God reworked that promise of greatness for all of the 12 tribes of Israel, to justly now be only given to the wrongly mistreated Joseph. So it really was an old promise, but in a new light.
For me, understanding this quite attested distinction helps to properly understand the “prophetic context” of God’s revelations, which helps to properly interpret and apply them. And with the insistence made to Knoll that his revelations are in the (distinct) category of “dreams”, then I am understanding that his revelations are merely a contemporary presentation of already stated prophetic events. I.e., as already stated in the SOP. So while technically future Sunday Laws are being presented, they are spiritually being presented just as EGW did over 100 years ago, but in a contemporary light. However, from my pertinent indepth Biblical studies I have seen that the Mark of the Beast involves more than just “observing the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th day” but also involves God socio-economic aspects of His Sabbath, as prominently presented in Isa 58. And so the “Mark of the Beast” issue now more deeply also involves adhere to Isa 58-sabbatical-opposing systems such as being systematically done by Capitalism vs. the Biblical socialism which God wills.
So, as I have presented in my ‘Prophet Testing’ blog post which also discusses Ernie Knoll’s revelations, I am seeing that through Ernie Knoll, God was testing His professed people according to the understanding that they said they ‘strongly’ had (cf. Ezek 14:1-5,7), which, as the first Century Jews and their mere “Letter of the Law” focus (e.g., MOB = Sunday vs. Saturday Keeping), is actually a less than more “halved” understanding of God’s Present Truth Will (cf. 2 Cor 3:4-18). However, as documented in Note #7 in my 1888 Message post currently, more and more SDA’s are starting to “see the full Gospel light” on Isa 58, most notably Don Mackintosh and Dave Feidler (see their sermons referenced in that post).
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By the way, I significantly forgot to explanatorily mention: Pharaoh’s revelation in Gen 41 of 7 fat and then years, was probably more specifically/technically a “vision of the night”. Contextually, It was all just a part of God’s plan of fulfilling the prior revelation given to Joseph in Gen 37 (= dream aspect) and God was here going to use a novel way to do this (hence the also involved “vision” aspect of this revelation.)
As I am seeing it, this distinction between dreams, visions of the night and (outright) visions, was gradually understood by Biblical people, as begun to be later seen in Job’s episode (Job 33:15). By, e.g., latter Bible times, it was evidently being distinctly understood.
I would similarly be seeing that the “visionary” methods used for your revelations in ca. 1986 vs. Knoll’s dreams in 2008 was because God was beginning to indicate in your time that he was going to soon work to bring about final events. Though these themselves have been known for a long time by what was revealed to EGW, the fact that God was here indicating that these things would soon be fulfilled, which is synonymous with prophetically revealing a ‘time for the end’, is itself a new light/present truth.
It is however thus that I am seeing that Knoll “dreams” in 2008 are confirming my own revelations given starting back in 2008 that the opened “window of time” for SDAs to bring about the end had come and by Knoll’s time, been judiciously confirmed to be gone. I.e., SDAs had failed their testing and, as first century Jews, did not recognize the time of their visitation. -Yet, with the 4 winds having been again held back, God’s great work will still go on. (Cf. 15MR 292.3-4).
-There are dreams that deal with future events. Such as Daniel and the 7 fat years and the 7 lean years. And also the dreams that Ernie Knoll has had deal with future events as well, such as the Sunday Law yet to be passed.
Hi Ernie, I had addressed the Joseph dream in a prior follow up email (perhaps you have not seen it. Here it is again first, in bold, and I also add further comments after it:
[Repost of above statement]
In the case of the revelations in the book of Daniel, from those ones given in specifically Dan 2, 4, 7, 8 & 10-12, I am seeing that in Dan 2 & 4 Nebuchadnezzar himself (followed in some instances by the author of the book), manifestly, uniformedly just termed his revelations as simply “dreams” (e.g., Dan 2:3, 5, 6), However Daniel, upon having been given the revelation in a “vision” (Dan 2:19), came to see that it involved both ‘a dream and visions’ (Dan 2:28). Indeed as the revelation started of with what had already and presently occurred, namely Babylon being a ruling world power, that first part was shown as a “dream”. However the future stages (cf. Dan 2:29) of the other world kingdoms, and then God’s own kingdom, were evidently shown through “visions” (of the night).
The Daniel 4 revelations were however, perhaps upon learning from Daniel’s distinguishing use of the terms, yet still somewhat confusedly, termed both “visions” (Dan 4:5, 10, 13) but also a dream (Dan 4:4, 6, 8, 18). But I am also now seeing that both Daniel (see Dan 4:19) and Nechadnezzar actually understood that the revelation that had been given was: ‘a (single) dream which contained (several) visions’ = Dan 4:9.
In Dan 7:1, the author of Daniel himself says that ‘Daniel had dreams and visions’ however Daniel himself, in those first person accounts of his in Dan 7-12, actually only uses the term “vision”/“vision of the night” for his, indeed, future-revealing revelations. (15+ times) (e.g,. Dan 7:2, 7, 13; 8:2, 15; 9:21; 10:7, 8, (14), 16).
So I am still seeing that visions and dreams, when rightly/knowingly, and not generically, applied do present different types of content in their revelations.
In regards to Knoll, as I am chiefly seeing, his revelations are as dreams because they involve a rehashing of already given SOP revelations, but in a more contemporary and specifying depiction. So while they do deal with future events, because those events had already been revealed to EGW, they are then said to be dreams.
Indeed he has only been shown the partial (=EGW) understanding of the Mark of the Beast, while the Isa 58 & Matt 25:31-46 present truth is that it ‘more fully’ involves much more than ‘observing the correct day and in the correct way’. (cf. EW 36.2) Even EGW understood that there would be more to learn on the MoB 6T 17.1. See this post.
Interestingly enough, in my ongoing reading/studies and testing analysis of Ernie Knoll’s dreams, today I saw that his Amusement Park dream (#38) is a specifying of the subtle snare that EGW was shown in EW 266-269 that Satan would specially set for SDAs, and all involves a subtle “Spiritualism” deception (as is Satan’s snare for the rest of the world (EW 262-266). See my just posted comments on it in Note #6 in this post.
[29] Shortly after, ca. 2 years later, my father “noticed/met” my mother in Church, and ca. a month and a half later, after a two-week engagement, they got married (-incidentally speaking, ‘Kissed-Dating-Goodbye’-type of development that has long, generally and specifically, spiritually shaped/influenced my own ‘dating & marital “philosophy”’); and ca. 2.5 years later, I was born [about 1.5 years after my sister]...so I am certainly glad that Jesus did not allow that other relationship to develop into anything more!!
[30] And it is quite telling to me of him having indeed followed God’s will in this, as he not only is today formally recognized as a lay pastor (though, on the part of the SDA Church, wrongfully non-paid), but, as in this recent visit to Montreal, it is quite normative for him to be specially introduced to a Church he is visiting on Sabbath, by a pastor who knows him, just as a (notable) visiting pastor from another Church would, particularly in this era when many SDA Church pastors are trying to get their membership to get much more involved in serious and dedicated lay work.
[31] A most interesting development which took place around this job loss (which incidentally was in dining room furniture assembly and which my parents still have and use the dining room set which they got at a great discount then), shortly after his boss unjustly laying him off, that boss got involved in a serious accident where he got, actually here, not at all seriously, hit from behind by a car and, being the impulsive guy he was, enragedly pounced out of the car to confront the person who had hit him, but unfortunately for him, he first did not look before getting out of the car and got rammed by a passing car. That secondary accident left him as a paraplegic and while he was in the hospital immediately after the accident, my father, upon hearing from former co-workers who had not been laid off, of the boss’s accident and injuries, went to see him in the hospital. My father said, the man was just besides himself, crying like a baby, not believing, and repeatedly saying so, that my father would, and had come to see him despite him having had acted unfairly in laying him off. He even told my father that he could come back to work and get his job back. But my father told he that he had not come to visit him for that purpose and refused the offer. And in somewhat of a partially converse “silver nor gold” (Acts 3:6) way (minus the miraculously successful “walking” part) my father instead helped his former boss (who was of Middle Eastern ethnicity) to consider more lasting and encouraging spiritual/Biblical things instead by praying with him at the hospital. And though this did not cause that man’s conversion, it no doubt probably had a lasting spiritual impact on him which could/would(?) somehow psychologically help him get through this new life of his as a paraplegic.
[32] Tellingly enough, when I presented him one afternoon with a job opportunity in 1995, which I recount in more detail here, and actually then more motivated by the fact that he was doing all this work for the Church and was being paid, I had to interrupt him during his study session for a sermon he was working on.
[33] The element of the tall majestic figure, assumed to be Jesus, (and my father is insistent that it could only be Jesus, though he never had any concrete indication of that), also confirmed to me a theory that I had been increasingly pondering at the time, all in relation to the unseen, but strongly felt, Mighty Angel presence in my June 1999 vision.
[34] It must be tellingly stated here that in recently (i.e., July 2012) discussing that Fall 2000 incident with my father, he just cannot remember saying to me then, and upon those circumstances, that: ‘he had had a similar dream of such a development’. But the undeniable fact is that he did...he simply just forgot it. I personally have such instances in my life where people insist that I had said something and I keep denying it, but, and as I could see my father feel now, I begin to distrust my non-recollection and tacitly admit that I may indeed have said that then. To me that usually occur in a personally non-normal reaction on my part where I then was effectively out of my mind, and given the fact that my father was actually (“irritatingly”) quite calm during that Fall 2000 conversation with me, I don’t see that it was because he was naturally “out of his mind then”, i.e. being upset, but because God, in a mind overmastering way, had impressed him with that fulfillement development and even had led him to state that perceived relation. Indeed my father today cannot understand why would he have then said something that was that adverse to him. But again, he indeed did, and that is indeed the only thing that calmed me down then, seeing the long-prescient, favoring and guiding hand of God in all of this.
[35] As severally stated and documentedly demonstrated in this blog (see e.g. the interpretation of Rev 10 in this post), the delineation of final event given to/through EGW was for a fast track, spiritual scenario, which could have occurred by the later 1800's. That was all actually an emergency case scenario. But due to the insubordination of SDA’s, also in this day, God has had to prolong time. And so He has since, and confirmingly by today, has gone back to the delineation He originally had as set forth in the Bible’s temporal and apocalyptic prophecies found in Daniel, Revelation and also other prophetic books of the Bible (Ezekiel, Isaiah, Micah, etc). God has now been working to fulfill, in this necessary prolonged time, His halted Zion of Israel, prophetic plans.
Therefore, pointedly dealing with the “progression” issue at hand here, in the vision given to EGW in EW 16.2-19.1, she is shown a “progression” of the 144,000 that is in the converse order than what is linearly stated in the Bible. In her vision the 144,000, and once they reach heaven, then instead go from, the Sea of Glass (EW 16.2a) then enter the Holy City (EW 16.2b) and then stand besides the River of Life, where they contemplate the Tree of Life (EW 17.1 = Rev 22:1-2). Then Jesus sets up the New Jerusalem on Earth. Then after entering that city and visiting it, they go through a wooded area, and then to Mount Zion (EW 18.1). It is while travelling there that they meet a before unseen/met group which are martyrs, also with “little ones” (=effective martyrs) and who had already been there (see here) gazing at glories of the place. They then head towards the Temple to enter it (EW 19.1).
[36] I am personally seeing it as a fault that my father is distortingly taking this “little gifts” statement too seriously where, in his lay pastoring work, I think, as I commonly see with many other lay people/workers in the SDA Church, even certain paid, and, mind-bogglingly, educated pastors, that he could be doing more to be more exegetical and documented beyond what the Bible itself is (translatedly) stating. But my father, most honestly, sees it best to keep it simple, and that mostly not to confuse his common preaching audience. Nonetheless, being the stickler for exegetical accuracy that I am, when I have manage to convince him of the critical importance of being exegetically accurate on certain passages, he has made the effort to grasp those deeper/scholarly exegetical issues, and has then found a way to seamless incorporate this in his sermons. But therein is then automatic implication with that vision and the application I am seeing to WBSC. Really it is only those who understand the great need for further and most accurate exegetical and scholarly work who will ever want to join and contribute to the WSBC Initiative. Therefore those that won’t want to, for whatever their dismissing reason is, will naturally not be allowed access beyond the “gates” of the planned Campus, which as I discussed above, is prophetically fulfilling God’s spearheading, Temporal Church Triumphant (Rev 7:13ff), Mount Zion, (Rev 14:1ff), Earth-reaching and filling (Rev 15:1ff), New Jerusalem Holy City Kingdom (Rev 21:1ff) of God, initiative.
So just as many, even most, who will be saved will not have been either martyrs, nor the 144,000, while those who may not contribute to God’s prolonged time plans may (in relative mercy) be saved, if they had faithfully lived up to the level of light/Biblical knowledge they had, or could feasibly have had, they will nonetheless “miss out” on the special, distinct reward that God has for martyrs and the 144,000 (as well as “little ones”, which I pointedly see are the ‘age of innocence’ infants which are being “murdered” (=effectively martyred) because of the wrongful acts of others, including people having aborted some (if not, by today, most) of them), and will instead fully go the ‘common way of all men’, particularly since time today has been prolonged.
Thank you for testing the visions and dreams God gave me. I hope it wasn't too much of burden. Peace.
ReplyDeleteNo problem James. It is actually the Biblical Imperative (1 Thess 5:19-22) and, in regards to your revelation on the 9/11 events, I distinct had always wanted to more fully treat the subject its prophetic implication. So your vision in that regards, which I indeed see to have been from God, provided the Biblical platform for that exposition. And, particularly in retrospect, doing what God mandates (i.e., testing prophesying) does not then prove to be a burden, but a most worthwhile endeavor. Hope we will continue our discussion of these important issues! (~Acts 17:11)
DeleteI haven't read too much of Ernie Knoll's dreams so I can't comment too much. But I'm aware that his dreams involved encounters with an angel called the Herald??? How many angels in the Bible actually identified themselves to human beings when delivering messages?? Only Gabriel, if I remember correctly. And the only angels who were named in the Bible were only Gabriel, Michael (whom the SDAs believe to be the pre-advent Jesus), and Lucifer who fell and became Satan. So we exclude Michael and Lucifer ('cos we'd exclude Jesus and Satan from the category of normal "angels"), and we have only Gabriel left. Only the angel Gabriel identified himself to mankind. All other angels did not. Isn't it suspicious enough, if an angel appears, and identifies himself with some name?? Expecially this case with all that detail of how the Herald went about delivering those messages to Ernie Knoll. Shouldn't this be enough to give all his dreams a suspicious ring?
ReplyDeleteSee my response to your comment above here
DeleteRegarding comment from Anonymous July 16, 2012 11:29 PM:
ReplyDeleteHerald was not his name but who he is. A messenger. The angel stresses that who he is, is not important but that the only name that should be acknowledged is Jesus. The Herald we now know is Gabriel.
At His service.
Correct “Anonymous 2”...That indentification had been documentedly stated in the link in my referring response. Thanks for the aid nonetheless!
DeleteThis is Brother James Tierney,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say I'm sorry we had harsh words. I have reread much of what you wrote about me and I am very certain that you misunderstood much of what I shared. I am glad you do not see everything I know God shared with me as lies or invention.
I have been blessed so much lately with very powerful answers to prayer and insight, but I will refrain from addressing it now.
All I can say is I hope you're blessed, and thank you for taking so much time to test the Spirit of what God showed me, which is more than most strangers gave.
Since my disappointment I am assured there is more to what I was shown than I have yet to realize, but I do not fault you for taking an unkind approach at reasoning on the issue.
Just be aware that more proof will be coming soon. We are in the time of the eighth king. John Paul II will be made a saint soon because of the claims of miracles by him in the Catholic Church.
This pope Frances will lead the world to accept the satanic workings of Pope John Paul II as divine as well as the visions of Mary.
I was not deceived in this; I just needed more prophetic pieces of the puzzle to see.
I never shared with you how God told me this issue because it was more unction than vision or dream. But because of you constant persistence in knowing how God shared this with me I recently shared more of what God inspired me in this and it is on the website. http://eighthking.blogspot.com/2011/12/whos-is-anti-christ-eighth-king-of-rev.html
Anyways, I am not discouraged in any of this.
I was feeling a lot of pressure after that disappointment, not I am more confident.
Sincerely James Tierney
(PS I knew Ernie Knowles was lying and inventing things when I had contacted him to test the Spirit leading him and shared a dream I had been given by God in 2007 about a traffic jam on Highway 35w where all the cars had been abandoned, then the day I opened my smoothie shop the bridge on the section of the highway I had seen in my dream collapsed. Then weeks after telling him this dream of mine he published a dream he claimed of his own where cars were abandoned on the streets. He stole my dream. After praying to the Father to know if he was inspired I got this answer to the prayer. This is how I was shown by God that Ernie was a liar. Does this sound like I misinterpreted what God showed me?)
Peace in the name of Jesus. Amen.
These claim of James Tierney, I.e., his “Eight King View and Pope Francis & Mary”; and his claim, which he further detailed in a follow up email, that: Ernie Knoll stole his revelations, were responded to in here starting at page 92-106 (entry date: August 5, 2013).
DeleteHis Eight King view is shown to still be erroneous due to non-exegetical, as well as non-Spiritual, interpretations and applications, but rather anecdotal and literalistic/superficial ones. And his claim about Ernie was shown to be inconclusive at best, also lacking an more indepth Spiritual consideration. As usual/typical, such false understandings are related to the deficiency mentioned in 1SM 25.4 & TM 116.1.
Since you are so intent on condemning me, and try so hard to make it sound like I am not capable of comprehending the intent of the dreams, visions and unctions that God has given me, most of which you admit was from God, let's see what you make of this so it will also be on record what you have judged against what God told me.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say "unction" it is not just a perceptual view. It is not JUST a redirection of thought. God literally speaks to me sometimes. Like when I received my first vision after fasting and praying for seven days in 1995 and reading Matthew 12:8 and seeing the light from heaven surrounding the words "the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath", I literally heard the words of God say "this will lead you home to me". I had never heard of Christians keeping the Sabbath, and I had never heard of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. So when God spoke to me and told me to join the SDA church when I didn't even know it existed, when I found them in the Yellow Pages it was like the most perfect revelation. The "unction" led me to discover the facts. Is this wrong in your eyes?
(I was working on my blog post on The Historical Two Witnesses (Rev 11) and did not notice your submitted comments until today (April 28).)
DeleteTierney: Since you are so intent on condemning me, and try so hard to make it sound like I am not capable of comprehending the intent of the dreams, visions and unctions that God has given me, most of which you admit was from God, let's see what you make of this so it will also be on record what you have judged against what God told me.
Given the (Spiritually and Exegetically) Full Testimony of Scripture and the SOP (as copiously presented throughout this Theological Views blog), it is really not “hard” at all to test what you are claiming as prophetic revelations and interpretations/applications and see where the Truth vs. Error lie (and, as per 1 Thess 5:21-22, hold on only to Biblically-validated Truth, and reject the False).
...So let’s do make a public record of your claims, [especially since, as repeatedly experienced with you, after you have been shown to be false, (including with your original 7-Heads interpretation/claim, among others) you, when you yourself, can, delete the discussion record [just as it has likewise been vexatiously done from others to all of my ca. 1800 posts the TOPIX SDA Forum, therefore all just a waste of my time]...but then resume your dogmatic/“pontifical” condemnation of people who Biblically pointed out mistakes in your interpreting claims.]. As Jesus said: ‘by the same judgement you condemn so will be the standard of measure used against you.’ (Matt 7:1-2ff)
Tierney: When I say "unction" it is not just a perceptual view. It is not JUST a redirection of thought. God literally speaks to me sometimes.
DeleteLike I have said before, I also, -(and as well as several other SDAs/Christians) have experienced the audible voice of God. See some of them in the following experiences:
-An Early and Later Experience
-My (Formal) Calling at a Christian Music Festival
-3 Related Striking (Auditive) Signs
-For Anchoring Guidance during my researching on Daniel’s 70 Weeks
-Confirmation during a Forum discussion on MSDAOL
-About Uphold EGW’s SOP
And as with any of such claimed experiences the confirming proof that it was God’s Voice is whether its message and fulfillment is in full agreement with the Bible.
Tierney: Like when I received my first vision after fasting and praying for seven days in 1995 and reading Matthew 12:8 and seeing the light from heaven surrounding the words "the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath", I literally heard the words of God say "this will lead you home to me". I had never heard of Christians keeping the Sabbath, and I had never heard of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. So when God spoke to me and told me to join the SDA church when I didn't even know it existed, when I found them in the Yellow Pages it was like the most perfect revelation. The "unction" led me to discover the facts. Is this wrong in your eyes?
DeleteI have long already, and amply, discussed that 1995 first vision and subsequent experience of yours. (See in the publicly-posted (PDF) record here) Like I said there, I do see that this experience was from God.....However only to this extent: In 1995, the SDA Church was indeed/still God’s Remnant Church Organization, but just like when Jesus told the Samaritan woman that “Salvation was of the Jews” (John 4:22b), He also knew that there very likely was going to have to be a subsequent, new (i.e. NT), more Godly movement that would entirely replace the Jewish/OT religion as the way to God’s (Full and True) Salvation. (=John 4:21, 23-26)
This is the same fundamental issue of our difference. Like the OT Jews, you, as well as other SDAs, are stuck with the quasi-idolatrous belief that God cannot, and will not, do better than the present SDA Church Organization. Well I just need to read the SOP testimony to know that this is not the case (e.g. LDE 59-62), and this is amply corroborated in the Eschatological Prophetic Plans that God has “sealedly” (=Dan 12:4, 10) revealed throughout the Bible. God indeed has had plans to establish His culminating Church Triumphant. But as the SOP reveals, only the worthy members of the Church Militant will join that more Godly Organization. (e.g. LDE 62.1).
And the Biblical/Prophetic fact of the matter is that you, as well as the other “SDA half-prophets” (=Ezek 14:1-9 -discussed above) discussed in this present blog post, have the Spiritually “thankless” commission of being candidly used for the judging/testing of the leaders and members of the SDA Church to see if their various professions, especially of expecting that ‘Jesus will return very soon’, is actually genuine, and not merely lip-service (=Isa 29:9-16) in that they do not actually care to get out and do the work required to finish the work but instead just sit back and wait to see. But thus far they have demonstrated that these have indeed merely been vacuous professions as they actually have, nor have provided, no/any valid/Biblical reason to reject the various revelations and testimonies given by you “half-prophets”. So to me, they instead have just fulfilled the similar spirit of the SOP’s prophetic statement in LDE 209.3 that: ‘they are rejecting the prophetic means with which God has chosen to (remonstratingly) speak to them merely out of vexatious pride.’
(cont’d)
(cont’d)
DeleteAnd for such Biblical reasons, I no longer engage in trying to debunk, point-by-point, every claim that you, or other SDA half-prophets, may make&post online because you are just (naturally/candidly) fulfillment your Ezek 14:1-9 commission, and it is actually the targeted audience of your commission, namely SDA Pastors/Leaders & Lay Members, who have the duty to Biblically state why they do not accept your messages to them....And as I have not seen that they have been able to do so against any of you guys, then they themselves are showing that they have no valid/Biblical reason to reject your prophetic ministry to them.
So, all this to (prefacingly) say that, -and as I have already stated to you, what you are presenting, pointedly in your interpretation of your own direct revelations, as well as your ensuing prophetical interpretations, are all according to what could, and would have been possible if the SDA Church had not failed this hour of judgement/testing of theirs. EGW also had been shown this failure, and likely, thus planned/expected denominational replacement of the SDA Church Organization.
If you would study out the Full Sabbath/Spirit of the Law Message of the Bible and SOP, you would avoid doing the same mistake of the Jews by limiting their “way to God” to only “Letter of the Law” comprehensions and applications, and thus not being able to (fully) comprehend the New Covenant’s, now eevn deeper: “Spirit of the Law” perfect theology. (+2 Cor 3:4-18)...
And to me, the only reason why you are refusing to learn and apply that Message is because you have made an idol of your (own perception/comprehension of your) visions and “unctions”, as well as your added interpretations, where you think they supercede the mandate and testimony of Jesus Christ/Word of God. Just understanding the Ezek 14:1-9 judgement would spare you this miscomprehension.
(cont’d)
(cont’d)
DeleteEGW herself never had such a view of her Prophetic experience because she knew she was just a “lesser light” and the Bible was the Greater Light, Fullest Revelation and Final & Infallible Arbitrator. And she also knew that the fulfillment of her vision, i.e in her day, was all conditional on, like with Ancient Israel, whether the SDA Church pass their test. See also with Jesus on Matt 10:23 discussed here.
But as it will be shown below, you still cannot pass a basic Biblical testing of, pointedly the claims, applications, understandings and prophetic interpretations that you are making about your revelations. And when they are not outrightly Biblically false/erroneous, they are just not the “fullest” understanding in the light of what the Bible and SOP have to fully teach on these matters. Your revelations are, as for the other SDA half-prophets, deliberately limited to what is within the scope of reach of understanding of the present state of the SDA Church according to their preferred sub-par “Letter of the Law” understandings.
God showed me that the Lateran Treaty began the healing of the head wound. Most people do not realize that the pope was taken hostage from the Lateran Basilica in 1798. The Lateran Basilica i what they call the "MOTHER HEAD" church. It is where the throne (a recommissioned toilet seat) of the popes is held, which is why it is called the Arch Basilica and Cathedra (place of the chair).
ReplyDeleteWhen they lost that throne to Napoleon they lost their "seat" in Rome and were in self imposed exile OUT OF Rome. The prophecy of Revelation 17 says the Harlot SITS on the city that rules the kings of the earth.
The prophecy also states that the Harlot is the MOTHER of Harlots in the time of the "one (who) is" in the time of the vision. John Paul II was the sixth pope after the seat was reestablished in Rome and he was the pope that began signing ecumenical agreements with the protestant churches. A mother cannot be a mother until she has children. So when the Harlot is SEALED on her forehead with the mark "mother of harlots" this means that in the time frame of the vision she has to have joined forces with the Protestants. This began in 1999 in New York City under the reign of JPII. He was also the pope who brought the Jesuits back to Rome. He was also the pope who was in power when the protestant churches began to receive political commissions from George Bush. So without a doubt JPII was the sixth king.
Then the seventh king Benedict XVI claimed to have a vision from God telling him to retire and he announced his retirement on the anniversary of the signing of the Lateran Treaty and lightning struck St Peter's twice. So he fulfills the prophecy "he must continue a little while" AFTER his reign.
Now the eighth king is here. Francis took his name from St Francis of Assisi who wrote the words "be as disciplined as a CORPSE" which was applied to the Jesuit constitution. When asked what the sign of the end would be in Matthew 24 Jesus replied in verse 28 "where the CORPSE is there the eagle will gather".
Tierney: God showed me...
DeleteHere is another fundamental issue of objection that I have with you. Every time you state that “God showed me”....I would like to know the transparent details of what actually happened to lead you to that conclusion, especially as you rarely, if ever, go on to say so. At best what you go on to do is expound on a Biblical interpretation and understanding, and most of the time, that does not pass an exegetical, Spiritual and/or Full Gospel message Biblical test. So I myself cannot agree with your understanding that ‘God showed you such things’ as they do not even Biblically check out.
...I will however give you that God could have shown you such things, but only according to: ‘the limiting cherish regards of your heart’ (Ezek 14:1-5), and pointedly because that is the similar ‘limiting regards’ of other SDAs. If/When you, and them, begin to fully pursue the Full Gospel Message and Mandate of Jesus Christ, then will these idols no longer prevent God from revealing more of His (actual) Present Truth and Advanced Plans to you all.
Tierney: that the Lateran Treaty began the healing of the head wound. Most people do not realize that the pope was taken hostage from the Lateran Basilica in 1798. The Lateran Basilica i what they call the "MOTHER HEAD" church. It is where the throne (a recommissioned toilet seat) of the popes is held, which is why it is called the Arch Basilica and Cathedra (place of the chair).
DeleteThis Lateran Treaty claim of your is a very interesting issue that you are claiming that God has shown you, as it perfectly exemplifies what I am spelling out here in regards to the “special” way in which God is using you to test the SDA Church. Like I have been saying, there are actually two paths of interpretation and application of Bible Prophecies:
The First Path is the “Letter of the Law” one which you SDAs are limiting yourselves to. Ironically enough, God would have honoured that understanding by allowing Final Events to develop as you all expect them to, but you all have failed to even pass the prior basic test of genuine, and especially completely unselfish, Christian Character (and as ‘Selfishness is the Chief of all other sins’ 4T 384.3 discussed here).
In fact, your GC-prophesied ‘Time of Trouble anguish’ would have been in the light of how the other non-SDA Christians seemed to be more faithful to Christ’s Full Gospel Mandate by them actually doing what you all could have done in regards to helping people in need as per Matt 25:31-46, and they would have (rightly) been Biblically showing that you only care about the Letter of the Law, while ignoring its Spirit (=Isa 58)
The Second Path actually incorporates all of the Letter of the Law aspects, just as Jesus did for the New Covenant (Matt 5:17-20), but it also executes the Spirit of the Law requirements. So its prophetic understandings and applications are more broad than just merely a Letter of the Law view.
So here, what you are claiming about the Lateran Treaty is really only applicable within your Letter of the Law perspective. However, as I have shown in this post at/on Rev 13:3 an exegetically-accurate interpretation of that prophetic “deadly wound” prediction is best fulfilled in: the loss of the Fourth’s Head’s (=Pagan Rome’s) Militarism. Only when the Papacy (=the Fifth Head of Rev 13:1) revived and “christianized” this approach and thus made use of it to make war, and also to persecute God’s saints (Rev 13:4, 7), was actually when that prior deadly wound had healed.
So while I do see that your typical SDA understanding of a deadly wound in 1798 is possible/valid, I only see it as being so for merely “Letter of the Law” fulfillments.
(cont’d)
(cont’d)
DeleteI, related to this topic, had an extensive discussion online (versus a former Christian, now Atheist) where I show how that patent SDA understanding can be applicable, pointedly in the 1929 Lateran Treaty healing the 1798 wound, but that is not the view that I see which is now/still applicable. As presented in my post on Rev 13 there is a deeper understanding to be reached on this prophetic point.
So again, I won’t generally object to the understandings that your are “being shown” to present, however the Bible and SOP testimony against that view is that, just like (literalistically) unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament, (due to the failure of Ancient Israel to, themselves usher in the New Covenant), God now has grander plans and more wide reaching fulfillments for those same prophecies (=15MR 292.3-4)...And only those who (naturally) qualify (as per TM 116.1) for the Church Triumphant will be able to perceive and grasp that New and Furthering Light.
Tierney: When they lost that throne to Napoleon they lost their "seat" in Rome and were in self imposed exile OUT OF Rome.
DeleteIn passing, I would make you aware that I have done a more indepth and accurate study of Napoleon’s 1798 capture of Pope Pius VI in my post on The Historical Two Witnesses, also showing/proving that that event historically, timely, fulfills the prophetic statement in Rev 11:13 to punctuate that prophecy of Rev 11.
Tierney: The prophecy of Revelation 17 says the Harlot SITS on the city that rules the kings of the earth.
DeleteGenerally stated, but most pivotally so, again to highlight however our two different views (i.e. Letter vs. Spirit of the Law) fundamentally diverge: You basically go by the view that ‘the woman of Rev 17 can only be the Roman Catholic Church’, but, as I have presented in this post (see at Rev 13:14), and also in this post (see at Rev 17:3), the exegetically accurate understanding is that: this woman was actually the same woman which had fled into the wilderness to be sheltered from the persecutions of dragon-inspired beast power (Rev 13:1-2ff), namely the State entity of the Roman Catholic Church having taken the place of Pagan Rome (Rev 12:6, 14). So the Woman shown in Rev 17 is actually, at the present time’s Fullest understanding/fulfilment of this prophecy: the Protestant Church movement, =the woman who had been in the wilderness.
EGW also came to such an understanding by having seen that the Protestant Church would replace its mother, the Catholic Church (see SpM 1.4). Indeed, as chronicled here SDA pioneers repeatedly had to adjust and calibrate their understanding of who/what “Babylon” actually was, and EGW herself knew that there was more to understand on such Mark of the Beast issues even after she had written the 1888 Great Controversy. (See 6T 17.1 (1900), =GCDB, March 2, 1899 par. 3; -fully discussed here)
Tierney: The prophecy also states that the Harlot is the MOTHER of Harlots in the time of the "one (who) is" in the time of the vision. John Paul II was the sixth pope after the seat was reestablished in Rome and he was the pope that began signing ecumenical agreements with the protestant churches. A mother cannot be a mother until she has children. So when the Harlot is SEALED on her forehead with the mark "mother of harlots" this means that in the time frame of the vision she has to have joined forces with the Protestants. This began in 1999 in New York City under the reign of JPII. He was also the pope who brought the Jesuits back to Rome. He was also the pope who was in power when the protestant churches began to receive political commissions from George Bush. So without a doubt JPII was the sixth king.
DeleteI am not seeing that this is being specifically stated in the prophetic text. So to me, that is again just one of your private interpretations/applications. That Woman was always/fundamentally the “mother of harlots”, and not just ‘starting in 1999’.
And as I have already stated above in this post, and in our email discussions I have stated my other exegetical reasons why I am not seeing your seven heads = 7 Popes claim as Biblically-substantiated....But like I am saying, that is all only plausible according to your “Letter of the Law” limitations and ‘SDA-special prophetic mandate’.
Furthermore, with, -(according to my more accurate/exegetical/advanced Biblical understanding, where that “harlot mother” is actually the Protestant Church), the “harlot daughters” are actually the Liberal Christianity sects which have been spawn from the mainline Protestant Church. And just as the Protestant Churches were in some ways more Biblical than their mother, the Catholic Church, yet were thus more deceptively erroneous, these Liberal Churches tend to be closer to fulfilling Christ’s Full Gospel mandate than mainline Protestant Churches in the social work they tend to do towards those in need, but they are likewise ‘more deceptively erroneous’ in that they tend to fully embrace Biblically-abominable practices such as homosexuality and abortion and hold up the Bible in little light at best. (E.g. U.S. Christian Democrats)
Tierney: Then the seventh king Benedict XVI claimed to have a vision from God telling him to retire and he announced his retirement on the anniversary of the signing of the Lateran Treaty and lightning struck St Peter's twice. So he fulfills the prophecy "he must continue a little while" AFTER his reign.
DeleteI do not believe that Benedict’s (claimed) vision was actually from God. I am rather seeing it as being from Satan, who also wants to fasten you all half|spurious-righteousness SDAs who have these limiting “Letter of the Law” understandings, into his all-encompassing ‘Gathering of militants for the Battle of Har-mageddon’ (=Rev 16:13-16) in order to war against God’s actual True Remnant.
Tierney: Now the eighth king is here. Francis took his name from St Francis of Assisi who wrote the words "be as disciplined as a CORPSE" which was applied to the Jesuit constitution. When asked what the sign of the end would be in Matthew 24 Jesus replied in verse 28 "where the CORPSE is there the eagle will gather".
DeleteAgain, mere and declarative claims/assumptions of, or even actual manifestations of “signs” does not prove that something is of God (Matt 24:24; 2 Thess 2:9; Rev 16:13-14). It would only be if the entire message, supposedly confirmed by a sign, is true/Biblical (Deut 13:1-5)....and your Bible interpreting claim here is most grossly easily seen to merely be wishful eisegesis at best: Matt 24:23-28 is more expandedly recounted, and thus better explained, by Luke in Luke 17:20-37. And there it is seen that Jesus was actually answering the question of: “where will the ones who are taken (i.e. the unrighteous) be taken to?” (Luke 17:37). Jesus’s (albeit cryptic) answer was that the unrighteous here would be left dead (cf. 2 Thess 2:8), even right where they stood, and that is then where vultures will gather to eat the flesh on their corpses. (cf. Rev 19:17-18) =Rev 14:14-16 vs. Rev 14:17-20. So I am at all not seeing any Biblical support for your claim and further extrapolation, including from the more protracted explanations that you have made in your pertinent blog posts. So this whole constructed claim is merely a “house of cards” where the removal of simply your Matt 24:28 card through the proper, i.e. Biblical interpreting, causes the whole construction to collapse.
ReplyDeleteSo Pope Francis is that corpse.
Then Pope Francis became the first pope to be asked to SPEAK from congress, when America "speaks" as a nation in establishing laws, so now America has "spoke as the dragon".
Now many other protestant churches have begun to sign ecumenical agreements with the pope and Mrs White said "In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [Revelation 17:1-4 quoted.] {7BC 983.3}
Thus is represented the papal power, which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; promising them, as did Satan our first parents, all good to those who receive its mark, and all harm to those who oppose its fallacies. The power which has the deepest inward corruption will make the greatest display, and will clothe itself with the most elaborate signs of power. The Bible plainly declares that this covers a corrupt and deceiving wickedness. “Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The MOTHER OF HARLOTS and Abominations of the Earth.” {7BC 983.4}
What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath (Letter 232, 1899). {7BC 983.5}
You have no idea how you have grieved the Father in your attack on what He shared with me.
Like I have said from the start, God gives me visions and dreams and speaks to me. He led me directly to the SDA church and told me anyone who argues against these things will never be prepared for the Latter Rain. I have also said I myself do not perfectly understand what God shows me until He sends me the information that completes the understanding, but He is NEVER wrong.
If you would had a more teachable spirit you and I could grow together in knowledge, but you think that you are perfect in knowledge and have no need to learn. I hope that changes, because you have proven you despise these things and hold me in contempt. You judge me for singing music, when what was offered in those videos was not presented as worship. Where in the bible does it say we cannot sing secular music? There is a difference between common and Holy.
I hope God wrestles with you a little longer so you can be broken. Peace.
Tierney: So Pope Francis is that corpse.
DeleteAgain, I have not seen any Biblical support for that interpretation/application/claim of yours. You arrived at this view through eisegesis and it should be sobering to you if you are experiencing signs which you are supposing are from God, but which are merely substantiating such non-Biblical view, as that then is clearly not the working of God...except only to remonstratingly test you patently, shoddily and indifferently/smugly so, non-exegetical SDAs.
Tierney: Then Pope Francis became the first pope to be asked to SPEAK from congress, when America "speaks" as a nation in establishing laws, so now America has "spoke as the dragon".
DeleteThis here also is the typical, and limited, SDA interpretation/understanding of what: the ‘Second Beast of Rev 13 “speaking like a dragon”’ would mean. However this too can be better understood through deeper Bible study. I’ll summarily restate my commenting on Rev 13:10b here:
Biblical exegesis shows that the “dragon” symbol is foundationally referring to the OT Leviathan. That was an actual colossal, “fire-breathing”, beast power that God foresaw that Satan would try to overmaster, -as he had done with the serpent in Eden, to, this time, inflict severe tangible damage upon the earth and on people. So that is why God went on to destroy the Leviathan (Isa 27:1) especially as it no longer could, -after the Flood’s nature debalancings, carry out the function that it was evidently created for: which was to keep the sea/ocean bodies of waters desalinated.
So the usage of this symbol for Satan’s power in Revelation, is to reflect Satan’s plan of establishing a kingdom power on Earth through which he could inflict such deeply affecting damage on societies and peoples. That was done through Ancient/Pagan Rome (Rev 12:); then Papal/Medieval Rome (Rev 13:1-2ff) and then, ultimately now, in&through the United States (Rev 13:10ff). And just like the Leviathan was known to originally have had a God-appointed mission, these powers would have operated under a seeming God-ordained purpose (cf. Paul speaking about ruling civil powers such as Rome in Rom 13:3-4), but these “dragon” powers instead allowed themselves to be taken over and controlled by Satan. And thus they only predominantly served to deceive and Spiritually corrupt the World into accepting Satan’s worldview, thus become evil and no longer possibly used/approved by God.
The U.S. founded itself to allow for “Freedom”, e.g. of conscious and worship. That in itself could be approved by God. But when the U.S. began to allow that “Freedom” to condone and also, even “cateringly”, facilitate sinfulness (contra. Gal 5:13-14; 1 Pet 2:16) that is when it no longer was like “the little lamb” as it “spoke like a dragon”. (Rev 13:10). So that indeed had begun to happen a long time ago in the unfolding of the U.S. History. And Satan has been making use of this deceptive false witnessing of this self-proclaimed “Christian Nation” to also pervert the rest of the world, even with the U.S. endeavoring to export this unBiblical Freedom way of life by military force.
Telling how the U.S. deems Religious Muslim countries/people as “evil”, ironically enough, because they are living according to the principles of OT Laws. So they therefore: e.g. do not allow their women to expose themselves. The U.S. also condemns as evil these Muslims fordoing capital punishment for moral sins, yet the U.S. itself murders over 4000 innocent infant every day in abortions. So really the comparatively, even outrightly, “evil” i.e. unGodly country/society between the two is actually the U.S./West....ANd that is why, as Rev 9:1-12 prophecies, God has raised up the Muslim forces to serve to tangibly ruin and punish the more evil Apostate Israel in “Babylon” (i.e. the Historical Catholic Church and now Apostate Protestantism =America/the West)
Tierney: Now many other protestant churches have begun to sign ecumenical agreements with the pope and Mrs White said {7BC 983.3-983.5 quoted}
DeleteAgain this understanding and application is all according to the limits of the “Letter of the Law” application. EGW also was left to limit her own understanding to this view, however she was revealed many other teachings which would substantiate the added Spirit of Law understanding. It however was not given her to herself perceive this in prophetic interpretation/understandings, so that she would not reveal that further view before the time of the establishment of the Church Triumphant had come. If that time had been reached, through the faithfulness of SDAs, in her time, then I am sure God would have given her those added and furthering prophetic insights. Nonetheless God gave several such insights in her dreams and vision which she herself did not (fully) grasp, but which would be perceived, understood and rightly applied by those members of the Church Triumphant.
Tierney: You have no idea how you have grieved the Father in your attack on what He shared with me.
DeleteActually it is you who has no, (or more accurately: does not care to have any), idea that you have no Biblical standing from/upon which you can make such dogmatic, even most blasphemous, condemnations. You would first need to make sure that your claims actually Biblically/Exegetically/Spiritually check out...You are obstinately rebelliously refusing the Greater Light: Jesus Christ, so you are left to stumbled about in your “dim-light” darkness.
Save such condemnations for SDAs, as they are the ones who are at the same level limited Biblical and Prophetic understandings that you are on, and you (and other half-prophets) are, at best, being used to expose that pivotal deficiency fact about them, and also you all. I have long moved beyond you all’s Spiritual Immature mindset and sub-par comprehensions, and am working towards fulfilling God’s Full Prophetic Mandate which is built upon the Full Gospel Message of Christ...and that is the only ‘edifice of interpretations and understandings’ which will pass intact through the coming highly deceptive events (=Luke 6:46-49); which your deficient 7 Heads interpretation will again also fail.
Tierney: Like I have said from the start, God gives me visions and dreams and speaks to me. He led me directly to the SDA church and told me anyone who argues against these things will never be prepared for the Latter Rain.
DeleteYet again, it is not possible, without having all of the original and full underlying information, to differentiate where a potentially actual revelation from God to you begins and where it ends, and then where your own subjective conflating understanding/interpreting kicks in. It actually is quite suspicious that you are refusing to reveal in detail exactly what you experienced when you claim that ‘God showed/told you something’. A prophet has the duty to make such information transparently known in order to be fully tested/vetted. So until you begin to provide such details, I have no obligation to simply accept as true whatever you declaratively say or claim...as if you were a “Pope”....So until such divulging of all pertinent details of experiences, given that your prophetic exposition does not even pass the Biblical test, I can, -and quite generously, merely see here that this too would at best also only applies to the people who you were sent to, namely the SDA Church.
The True Latter Rain message also will not actually be found in/from your limited takes, but in what the Bible fully reveals about what this Blessing will be like/for, which is also according to Christ’s Full Gospel Message. At best, your genuine/Biblical (i.e. not your erroneous interpretations/application) prophetic ministry would help put likewise Biblically limited SDA’s on the path, and actually at/to Early Rain level at best, but they eventually can ‘seek to further advance’ (Dan 12:4, 10) to where they would obtain the distinct True/Full/Biblical Latter Rain Outpouring of God’s Holy Spirit.
Tierney: I have also said I myself do not perfectly understand what God shows me until He sends me the information that completes the understanding, but He is NEVER wrong.
DeleteGod indeed is never wrong, but you repeatedly indeed are...So you are doing God a great disservice by refusing to clearly distinguish what God may be actually telling and revealing to you, versus what your own takes are. So use all of that SCREAMING and condemning energy instead towards transparently and fully detailing what you are claiming God has been showing you. Stop trying to turn whatever prophetic anointing you may have into a cult of yourself. Focus instead of fully presenting the revelation of God...-if you are really serious about fulfilling that calling of yours...
And at the very worst, God is allowing the approach of 1 Kgs 22:19-23 to be effectuated through you to SDA all according to His Ezek 14:1-9 judgement....Whatever the transpiring case, your message still mostly falls short of the Full Testimony of Scripture, and so it is mostly not an Actual Truth, let alone the Present Truth.
Tierney: If you would had a more teachable spirit you and I could grow together in knowledge,
DeleteIn all of our discussions, whenever Biblical evidence is presented which impeach your claims and/or interpretations, e.g., most chiefly, Biblical evidence of Christ’s Full Gospel Message and Mandate, you just stop engaging and responding to them, and start to pompously condemn...Succinctly said, that is not the Spirit of Christ. As with other SDAs, all you selfishly care for is for Jesus to return in your lifetime, and so you most shortsightedly think that if you would do what Jesus is mandating for you to fully do in regards to people in need then that would foil your living translation plans...Keep so ‘primarily thinking about your self-interests’ and see how God does not honour that...In fact that pointedly is what your prophetic ministering is all about: to reveal that fatal Spiritual/Character flaw in both yourself and like-minded SDAs.
Even David Gates has by now more than less seen that flaw in himself and learned the lesson by now focusing more on accomplishing missions works rather than preaching that Jesus is Coming back very soon, because as Jesus actually said in Matt 24:14 finish that Kingdom Work is what will bring about the end.
Tierney: but you think that you are perfect in knowledge and have no need to learn.
DeleteLOL...I am learning every day.... I just do not care to learn about what is not Biblical and deficient as, -as copiously shown, are most of your claims. You want to convince of your message, then do as 1 Pet 3:15 requires, and ‘be ready and capable/competent to give an answer’ for the many Biblical objections that I have giving against your views and interpretations.... You ignore these debunkings and merely pompously insisting that: “God showed” you, does not prove anything, pointedly as your claims are still shown to be contrary to the properly/exegetically interpreted and divided Word of God. So what that only shows is that it may not actually be God who is giving you those false and unbiblical revelations and signs. (Isa 8:20)....
And at best, it could be God telling the SDA Church, through you, to ‘do what you have to do quickly’ (John 13:27): I.e. For you all to embrace your spurious, shoddy, eisegetical and deficient ways of interpreting and applying the Bible and Prophecies, -which would indeed lead you all to such claim about Pope Francis, so that you all can finally hit that ‘“adamant wall” of stunning disappointment’, after which you would/should finally instead endeavor to learn all of the neglected Full Gospel Lessons that you are now sanctimoniously refusing to learn. That is indeed how God ultimately has to deal with His rebellious people!! (Amos 7:1-9)...
...As Jesus said, if/as your Righteousness (i.e. Right Doing) is not better than a “Letter of the Law” level/standard, then it is not God’s Perfect/Full Way (Matt 5:20)...and as I myself have been sealed in the Full Gospel’s Message, your deficient and sub-par message certainly can/will-not begin to sway nor impress me. (=LDE 218.3-219.4) I would have to become most unBiblical and Biblically illiterate to do so, and clearly, at least to me, that does not begin to be either a rational or Spiritually-valid option.
Ironically, but tellingly, enough, it is actually my Full Gospel view which can salvage your bound-to-also-fail take/expectation about Pope Francis, in that, and as I have already stated to you in our email discussion, it is most manifest that he has forever changed the persona of the Catholic Church, i.e. into becoming a more wholly practical works Church, which prominently works to help, or seem more willing to help, even more people in need. The prior haughtiness and pompousness of the Papacy before that, which offended and alienated many unbelieving people, seems to me that it will never be able to return. And indeed I have witnessed many people, even atheists, (-see in this post) who are enthusiastically attracted to Pope Francis just for such reasons. But my Prophetic understanding shows (see in here at Ezek 39:24) that this (Chameleon approach as the SOP says GC 571.2ff), all is serving to attract people to the Catholic Church so that they can band together in that group of “Papists, Protestants and Worldings” (GC 588.3a; Mar 190.2) which will ‘try to effectuate a Temporal Millennium which will be trying to counterfeit (=Rev 16:13-16) God’s True Jubilee Millennium.’
Tierney: I hope that changes, because you have proven you despise these things and hold me in contempt.
DeleteMost factually stated: both of your observations here are indeed true...and for ample and warranting Biblical reasons....You are your own worst enemy, i.e. to your prophetic ministry...Frankly, your, either incapability, and/or indifference, to properly present the Bible is most eerie...Pointedly as: giving instead more weight to (private) signs and experiences, and even when they are not in harmony with the Bible, is Satan’s most successful delusion....He even (also) tried it on Jesus (Matt 4:1-11|Luke 4:1-13 reconciliated&discussed here)
Tierney: You judge me for singing music, when what was offered in those videos was not presented as worship. Where in the bible does it say we cannot sing secular music? There is a difference between common and Holy.
DeleteI actually had more of an issue with you seeming/singing like you were drunk, and/or ‘like Steven Tyler tripping out on acid’. That certainly does not reflect the image of Christ, prominently connoting an “appearance of evil”, and thus is not Biblical, as many SOP principles sustain. Indeed it’s a terrible public witness, including to those non-believers in that club. I does not even seem that you were then caring to give a Christian testimony, because if that was the case, at the very least, you would/could have more dignifiedly/“soberly” performed that song. So that is all why to me, you were seen to be more worshipful of Aerosmith/Tyler and their worldy ways, than of try to represent and uplift Christ and His dignifying Spirit.
(cont’d)
(cont’d)
DeleteAs for myself, in my various fiery denunciations (=Jer 1:9; 5:14; cf. Rev 11:5) against both the Secular World and the similarly worldly/deficient SDA Church, I have decided to remonstratingly use the words and music of (their) various secular song against them, and all according to a Matt 23 denunciating theme/template, -“hell-dooming” lyrics and all. as per: Matt 5:22 vs. Matt 23:17) : “Full Disclosure”, these remonstrating usages are:
-(in case you had not checked out that cited reference: those two music videos about the SOP Prophesied 9-11 II Event: in here.
-for a depiction on the cost of my now 20 years of ministering to my personal life: here;
-a modernized rendering of Christ’ woe-denunciations in Matt 23 here...
-...which stepped up a prior “actual (human) sentiments”: “Is that all you got?!!!...” challenging (cf. Luke 11:45-52) here [this song is actually from the Contemporary Christian Music Band P.O.D. (Payable On Death)]
-some “strong agitation” (cf. 2 Thess 2:11-12) contributing to the sought for Shaking: here;
-and this Final Warning salvo in regards God’s Looming, all-encompassing, Judgement against those who have scoffed against His {actual} message (Luke 18:7-8; Ezek 9): here
Contrarily, I did not see, nor disclaimingly hear from you, any redemptive measures/purposes in/for your song choice or singing performances...but indeed merely, purely, and even emulating, =‘adulating’, tributes to these secular song and their performers....Btw, I am sure it would lead most SDAs to likewise strongly question your claim of prophetic calling....
(cont’d)
(cont’d)
DeleteWhich reminds me: you (effectively, if not explicitly) claim to be a (ultimate) prophet for the (Global) SDA Church...I.e. ‘you have the prophetic message which they all need to heed in order to be ready for soon unravelling Final Events’....So then, rather than trying to merely contact individual/popular pastors like Stephen Bohr and Doug Batchelor, have you ever tried to directly (i.e. likewise in writing/registered mail or by phone) contact the General Conference?? As related in my bio-post, I sought to do so during the beginnings of my ministry, 1997-2000, and as they kept on refusing my bettering suggestions, I moved on on my own.
Tierney: I hope God wrestles with you a little longer so you can be broken. Peace.
DeleteThat is the hope that you should actually be praying about yourself, because I cannot do anything for you if your final arbitrator is not the Bible, but your own experiences. If you are receiving messages which cannot harmonize with the Bible, then they are not from God....At best, i.e. your best chance for any Divine Validity is, indeed as I am seeing it, in God sovereignly using you for His Ezek 14:1-9 judgement of SDAs.....